(Business 101: Pretty graphs make everything better)
Imagine, if you will, a country or city-state called Libertopia. We have just overthrown our evil socialist masters and made a new government from scratch. By some magic video game miracle, we don’t start with any debt, outside enemies, and have a fully functioning market-driven farming and industrial base that trades all over the world. There will be no empty bellies in Libertopia tonight (except for the orphans who aren’t working hard enough in the monocle polishing factory).
In my imaginary country only property owners can vote. So after the revolution we get together, review the collected works of SugarFree, hem and haw, drink our fill of mead. and decide to go with the idea of keeping our borders closed to the nearby Outsiders. We are, after all, a tight community with a shared background.
What would happen?
At first not much at all. Business would go on as usual, and we would stay competitive with our neighbors. But under the “nativist” model, as time goes on, domestic market limitations and labor issues start. The heads of industry and farming may start to clamor for more talent and workers.
The voters finally listen and get together. After a few rounds of brandy and the feasting on deep-dish pizza, we decide to open our borders just a little bit; letting in a yearly allotment to meet our needs. To keep things simple, these Outside workers aren’t citizens, nor do they have a vote or receive welfare (which doesn’t exist in our country, comrade!). This “restrictionist” model, however, still causes worker shortages, especially if the economy starts heating up.
Business is doing great – so great that more Outside workers are needed to meet demand. Once again the voters get together, do a few squats, and finish off a keg or two. We decide to open the borders all the way, allowing everyone who wants to come in. After all, things are looking fantastic for business.
But we begin to notice that the citizens are starting to get angry. There are protests and labor strikes because they have to compete with the Outsides for jobs.
Now what’s the point of this simplified and rather silly story? Using the scenarios above I’m trying to minimize input variables for the idea of something like the Laffer Curve, but instead of dealing with taxation, we are touching on immigration. I imagine such an idea has already been explored before, but hey, I’m no economist (we can tell! – ed). This is not an economic model either, but something soft and political science-y.
Is there an optimum rate of immigrants – we’ll call it the “Jerbs Curve” – before the citizens get resentful (the Resentment Index?) with having to compete for wages with the Outsiders? See Chinese rail workers or the Irish immigrants as an example. And is there a point where they get angry enough at this perceived unfairness that they revolt and put in a new leader? Or in a real world case, have enough electoral votes to put in someone like Trump?
If there is such a thing as a Jerbs Curve, it would only skew the line in one direction or another: adding in welfare, illegal immigration, race, identity politics, war, the state of the economy, political party dynamics, and countless other variables.
Perhaps the conclusion to all of this, if we can make one, it is that the world is a complicated place that often defies the most simple of models. Something as dynamic as a highly populous country with millions of inputs, variations, outputs, needs, and whatnot is impossible for anyone to predict. As far as intellectual exercises go, you can create models that are perfectly logical, but do they reflect the real world at all? How would they be when implemented or exposed to the real world?
Comments and insults are welcome.
edited by Elspeth Flashman
Can I say for a second that I’m amazed that not only in a week have you beautiful people managed to make a site like this, y’all make content that beats most of what’s on the other site?
Anyways.
Immigration is probably the most controversial part of the LP platform amongst libertarians. We’ve certainly seen all kinds of battles on both sides. I tend to fall more towards the open borders side of things. But this is right; there exists a point where the natives are going to get tired of (perceived or otherwise) depression of wages due to immigrants. And I don’t think you can calculate that in a chart of a graph. Maybe it leads to a guy like Trump being elected (I don’t really put his election on that myself). Maybe it’s overstated and I’m wrong and that point doesn’t exist. Or maybe that point comes before I think it does.
I don’t think there’s an answer. Which is what makes this pretty interesting to talk about. Thanks for it.
HTML test. The line below this is supposed to contain a link to a MM u-toob video but the displayed text is supposed to be “beautiful people.”
Beautiful People
What’s MM?
It apparently capitalized for you.
Wait ’til the tits and ass articles start to come.
There will be tits and ass articles, right?
You did see Thicc Thursday, ne?
Yes.
Yes I did.
The line is made even more gray by the fact that Jim 60kEarner is gonna get pissed about immigration much later than Sally 25kEarner. Also, agenda setting plays into outrage much more than one would think. If we’re all happily enjoying mead and squats in a community where we’re charitable to our poor, we look out for our neighbors, and we give a friend a quick boost when they’re temporarily down, the chance that the local newspaper is gonna rage on immigrants is pretty low. If immigrants are competing with our local poor for scraps of government “charity” and people are thrown into the meat grinder whenever something bad happens to them, immigrants become a much easier target.
Trash, I hope it’s ok if I tried to link yer excellent “downfall” to my handle.
Of course, it was made for public enjoyment!
Enjoying meade and squats together (or smoking weed in a corner and jamming to Skrillex NEAR everyone else), as a society of loosely affiliated friends, to promote individual freedom and mutual prosperity… Im’a go cry now.
“What’s the difference?” asks the Austrian Schooler.
I imagine such an idea has already been explored before, but hey, I’m no economist.
I’m now imagining Lord Humungus, mask and all, giving a lecture in a tweed jacket.
“If the pump, the oil, and the gasoline are all owned by a single syndicate, demand will skyrocket while production will slow. There will be too much violence, too much pain.”
He’s still in college.
Absolutely right. And as libertarians this is what we point to when explaining the folly of government intervention in the market. We are clear-eyed about this when it comes to both capital and land, but for the life of me I’ll never understand why some don’t get it when it comes to labor.
My opinion is that the line gets crossed with the natives when they fell the strain of the system due to welfare and accomadation of the immigrants. If they immigrants were there to pick up the jobs that were available, rent a squat rack, or have a good time with the local mead maids the natives would have little to complain about. But if they show up to the gym and demand free memberships, all the tv’s only show Oprah reruns, and all squat racks be used for interpretive dance stretching there may be a problem.
I know this is supposed to be focused towards the jerbs curve, but if I were king for the day and we agreed to a taxation system I would eliminate withholding and each citizen is responsible for scratching that check to the tax man each quarter. Less strain on business and I think there would be a more responsive citizenry if we truly had a grasp on how much we pay for the government we have. This includes property taxes, screw escrow and bond measure after bond measure fur de kidz.
but if I were king for the day and we agreed to a taxation system I would eliminate withholding and each citizen is responsible for scratching that check to the tax man each quarter.
So much this! Also, eliminate all corporate taxes. The voters should feel the full pain of taxation.
Hey trshmnstr, was it you that posted a JANTAS like post about property taxes on the other comment section?
Over at TSTSNBN? I vaguely recall writing something about property taxes over there a little while back. I haven’t written about them over here yet.
*jots down note for future article idea*
I’m thinking of writing something about special assessment districts.
It’s going to have to wait for a while. I have a lot to say, and I’m going on vacation soon. No internet for me.
Interesting! I’m looking forward to it!
I’ll probably write a philosophical screed/rant on why property taxes are the most evil type of taxes, and why Georgism is shit.
Interesting, as I see a Georgist SLT as the least immoral tax.
Essentially my argument will be that taxes on action are less immoral than taxes on inaction. Thus, taxes on mere ownership of property are inherently worse than taxes on sale, income, etc.
tl;dr: you can’t opt out of a land value tax, you have to live somewhere. However, you can theoretically live without generating income and without transacting with others.
I’m looking forward to him going on vacation as well.
Wow, finally someone who agrees with me on property tax being the most evil of all taxes. Why? Because it effectively means that you never own your property, you are merely renting it. Imagine the benefit to society if you could pay off your home and actually own it, and live off your land? It’s a beautiful idea and one that used to actually exist. Prior to what… 1900? Or somewhere around there.
“taxes on action are less immoral than taxes on inaction. Thus, taxes on mere ownership of property are inherently worse”
Bingo. Taxes on ownership effectively destroy ownership; the owner becomes a renter. Paying tribute to the king for the privilege of using property is primitive and backward. I end up looking at the modern pol the same way I look at a naked savage sitting on a crude throne holding a stone axe, wearing a bone in his nose and a crown made of skulls.
These people have doled out the privilege for collecting wild honey, fishing, hunting, and how many trees one may cut for house building since the dawn of time. The time for allodial title is long overdue. A system without allodial title is a system that does not recognize self-ownership of the individual.
@Hyperion
If you remember my post about the rectification of names, I explained that alloidal title was made extinct after the ratification of the 5th Amendment which made the Federal government the ultimate landlord of all real property in the United States. Which is completely fucked up when you consider that in Communist fucking China, people can do this.
I’m of the theory that special assessment districts are one of the things that lead to one party, supermajority rule.
I have a line item on my PT bill: Beach Cities Health District. $200. Maybe (and I mean maybe) 5% of the electorate shows up to vote on the board of directors. Same with the water district.
All of these positions are part time and pay 6 figure stipends (and have huge budgets). They all support each other politically.
I have just a few on my bill, including school district bullshit. Enough to make me angry, but still. not that many compared to… Chicago.
Each bill there might have 100 or more special assessments. Nobody knows what they do, nobody votes, nobody complains. It’s a GREAT way to steal money.
Sloopy, I’ll email you pics of my tanned wang.
The worst taxes of them all are taxes on our time. One can earn more marginal dollars; one can’t earn more marginal time.
And here is the point that I digressed from, originally.
The Beach Cities Health District shouldn’t exist.
It was formed as the Beach Cities Hospital District many years ago for the express purpose of running hospitals in the district. Guess what? Both hospitals closed. No more hospitals in the district.
The entire rationale for forming the district was that the residents would benefit from having hospitals close by. Not so anymore. I live in one of the most densely populated places in the country, and now, if I suffer serious head trauma, I have to take a helicopter to get to a Level I.
The hospitals closed, but OF COURSE the district didn’t dissolve. They were too entrenched. So now I’m in special assessment district with a multi million dollar budget to…. tell me to eat more vegetables.
So now I’m in special assessment district with a multi million dollar budget to…. tell me to eat more vegetables.
Well, is it working?
Seriously though, that is messed up.
Sweet Jesus, Playa. Why do so many of you put up with California is beyond me. We got our asses out of there the moment an opportunity arose.
I think history has proven that fraternizing with the womenfolk is actually thenumber one thing they complain about. Just as one example, The early part of the 20th century was filled with pants-shitting over the danger Chinese men presented to virginal, pure White womanhood, what with their opium dens and knowing how to do the laundry.
A friend of mine that will go unnamed informed me that watching asian porn will alleviate those fears.
Not all mead maids are womenfolk….
I apologize for my cis-heteronormativity.
I blame Thicc Thursdays.
As long as the sammiches get made…
And the beer is served.
I know it’s the bourbon talking…
How much of that well-documented hand-wringing is based entirely on wishful fantasy? I don’t want to bring up a recently elected politician, or the word that rhymes with “fuck”, but it’s always struck me that those arguments (and the ones about marijuana driving “the blacks” to take white women, etc.) were made with a heavy breath and a tense forearm.
If you read the contemporary porn of the era, I suspect quite a lot.
I dont think it was MJ driving blacks to take white wimmens, I think the panic was that the devil weed made the white wimmens want to fornicate with negroes. Or was it jazz music and MJ? Something like that. In any case without pics I am skeptical.
It was Bollywood and pot.
I see what you mean. I see people dancing, flirting, smiling and laughing. They are definitely enjoying themselves. We better stamp that shit out quickly.
Why do you think that drinking antifreeze is perfectly legal, but cannabis consumption is illegal in most places? The peasants aren’t allowed to enjoy themselves too much. For the children.
Each quarter? Someone else some time ago had a better suggestion. Pay your taxes by writing a check on April 14, all elections are held on April 15. (Dates chosen are random but consecutive)
How about elections 4 times a year? I was going to suggest monthly due to the financial literacy of the everyday citizen…..but settled with quarterly. As an imaginary king I would decree that one requirement to graduate high-school would be to balance a checkbook for your entire senior year.
My opinion is that the line gets crossed with the natives when they fell the strain of the system due to welfare and accomadation of the immigrants.
I agree. I think that is most of the natives anger.
Also, I could not agree more with the idea of elimination of withholding of taxes. Get out the check book.
For those who prefer withholding, I will happily provide a service where you direct deposit with me, I withhold a chunk of your check, deposit the rest in your bank, send a check on tax day and send you a refund. All for a small fee.
During the restrictionist period, how does Libertopia enforce the immigration restrictions, consistently with the Bill of Rights – assuming of course that people come to Libertopia from the neighboring statist countries in order to have better opportunities.
Even countries which are more, shall we say, flexible about observing constitutional rights end up with illegal immigrant populations, and that’s when they have enforcement tools like eVerify and no-knock raids which I imagine a Libertopia wouldn’t have. Not to mention the smaller number of cops in Libertopia and the less aggressive attitude the Libertopian cops will be trained to have.
They are approximations of the real world. They are useful in predicting trends most of the time. They help give us a broad understanding, thats all.
As my Organic Prof used to remind us constantly: “Stop looking at the big picture. The devil is in the details.”
That may be true, but too many people neglect systems thinking to begin with.
It is true but more so in Organic Chem than many other fields. In most fields no understanding of the big picture means no understanding.
People immigrate when they think doing so would improve their situation. Unless they are missionaries, who are tr
One has to ask what kinds of people those might be. Smart, capable guy tied down and cant accomplish anything in his current shithole looking for opportunities? Or worthless a shit responsible for tying smart capable people down coming here looking for a handout? One is a giant, the other an envious midget.
The incentives we offer matter. In other words, we should stop giving government handouts to immigrants.
‘Sup dog?
Cav here I think is on track to a the simple elegant analysis.
People will migrate when it stands to improve their situation. Already limiting immigrants initial voting rights and not having a huge cradle to grave welfare state, this will self-regulate over time as long as no frictions or restrictions come into the process. The immigrants have agency too.
Any inherent competitive advantages libertopia would have in relation to neighbor states are what would need to be considered for protection/conservation as much as the immigration issue. But that is outside the scope of this article.
What I would recommend is that Libertopia be split into several autonomous boroughs, with at least one of them set up as a strict anarchy (no formal government). That way, people have somewhere to go if the governing authority of their preferred borough becomes dictatorial.
The government officials of the other borough(s) would have to be incentivised somehow to keep them from colluding against Anarchburg. Sort of like “the first thief divides the treasure, while second thief gets first pick of which pile is his.”
To answer the question most directly, I would have to say,”It depends”.
/economics major
But seriously excellent scenario. This place continues to excel with its content.
Excellent post! And excellent site! Kudos and thanks to all who’ve worked on it. I was a longtime lurker only recently turned frequent commenter at the place-that-shall-not-be-named. I know it’s mostly very-long-time commentariat members here, but I hope you don’t mind me tagging along. You guys are 90% of the eh-hem reason I was at the other place to begin with, especially after the commentary above the comments declined.
There have been many of us long-time lurkers, rare commenters from “over there”.
Join in and it seems it is ok to start speaking up too.
Oh, we can’t be that bad.
Also, Here is the key to formatting.
Ouch. It’s gotten to the point that I cringe if I hover over a link and the cursor turns to ‘text selection’ and not ‘link clicker’.
Just a link to html cheat sheet. Use em for emphasis not i for italics. Strong instead of bold.
Thanks for the heads-up! I’ll look into it.
D00d, you sugar-freed the living bejebus out of that link.
He was just being very zen.
ooops
Does anyone really forget there first SFed link?
We guarantee you won’t forget it, ever, (:
I’m in the same boat as you. I just came here and started talking like I was one of them. They haven’t slapped me up yet. Some of them have even replied to me! *swoons*
Also, I like the avatar. Cute
Ha thanks! It took about 15 seconds in PowerPoint. I did have to give that other place a click to get the color right, though.
Wholeheartedly agree. Loving the content here.
This post solidified thoughts I have about taxation. My wife, who works for the city we live in (in the Antelope Valley here in southern CA), has slowly started to see why I get so animated about taxation and government abuse. She works in civil engineering. But, she’s seeing the laziness, incompetence and inefficiencies on that scale.
When I complain about needing licenses to do certain things on our own property, she’s getting it now.
Trshmnstr and Suthenboy’s points upthread about taxation on action are key reasons why I’m thrilled this site and the Reasonoids group exists. Bravo!
There will be no empty bellies in Libertopia tonight (except for the orphans who aren’t working hard enough in the monocle polishing factory).
That is beautiful. Also testing this new-fangled em tag. You kids and your damn fancy hypertext markup language.
Ha ha! He had his mom edit the article!!!!
It’s a good thought experiment, starting with spherical, frictionless citizens. Interesting.
If you start with the only benefit of being present in the country is being able to directly participate in the economy, it still isn’t simple. Add in human motivation and emotion…it gets complicated quickly. The Jerbs Curve/Resentment index – it would be useful to know what that might be in a perfect world like what is described.
Massless point citizens in a vacuum.
Trying to stay on topic…here is another example of why the public might get nervous about immigration.
It’s another tongue-bath for the slavery professor at Georgetown. The site is called The Tab, which claims on its About Us page that “our alums are working for Reuters, Vogue, the Guardian, BuzzFeed and the Daily Mail – and three of the four trainees at the Daily Telegraph last year were Tab editors.”
Basically, you should believe the professor and not your lying ears, he is simply the victim of the alt-Right and “Trump’s America.”
The socialists had the same problem. In the beginning they advocated policies that average people found reprehensible. They were radicals that thought espousing insane shit was edgy and cool; useless tools that wanted to wreck the system they blamed for their own worthlessness. Over time they realized that they could not explicitly tell people what they wanted because they would be rejected. They learned to couch it in language that disguised their agenda while openly denying the very things they wanted. This is where the progs twisting of language and logic comes from.
The radical islamists haven’t learned that yet. They will, but they haven’t yet. Watch out for it because it is coming.
This guy is trying it in the face of his actual speech.
“Oh, I was giving an innocent historical analysis, as a good antislavery Muslim, and these alt Right Islamophobes distorted it!”
It’s the perfect pitch for a lefty and/or academic audience. It requires ignoring his actual speech, but apparently that’s easy nowadays.
PS – this is the Saudi version of Islam – 18th century in origin – we see it everywhere because those rich bastards are paying to spread it everywhere.
So if only property owners can vote and the borders are wide open, would it not be simple enough for outsiders to come in, buy parcels of land, and end libertopia? A few very wealthy individuals outside that system could defeat it by attrition – a dilution of the voting population of porcupines until the statists have everything again. And they way outnumber us.
California is an example of such infiltration. They’ve got an anti-business regulatory regime, NIMBY stance to building new homes driving up the market price of homes and stymieing population growth, convenient coastal position for importation of cheap goods from the East that produces a lot of well-off denizens, etc. That creates a market pressure to leave the state for freer ones, but then they bring all their political baggage with them and flip other traditionally red Western states blue, importing all the bad policies that caused them to want to leave California to begin with.
Libertopia would be like a magnet for those sorts, would it not?
“So if only property owners can vote…”
I meant to touch on this. It has been tried before. It doesnt work. It distorts the incentives for buying and selling property. Wealthy companies and individuals who want a stranglehold on politics end up hoarding land and the economy evolves into a feudal system.
There’s also the incentive to buy large amounts at a time and then parcel it out to those who hate freedom, thereby creating a bunch of voters in short time. Given that statist systems suck (driving people to look for free, wealthy nations to expatriate to), and they have a stranglehold on education (not very economically-minded or freedom-oriented people), it would be California’s model of importing illegals for ulterior motives.
I read an interesting article the other day about a proposed Constitutional Amendment (probably won’t happen) which would end the practice of counting illegal immigrants in the Census. Having millions of illegal immigrants in your state gets you more seats in the House of Representatives and more electors in the Electoral College. In California’s case, if they stopped counting illegals in the census, the state would lose 4 representatives and electors.
I’d never even considered that particular problem. The illegals actually give California more clout simply by being there, and they don’t have to vote illegally to have an effect.
It has always seemed wrong to me that representation was based on all people instead of eligible voters.
They can import all the voters they want, gain better representation for doing it, and can ignore the financial repercussions because there’s always a federal government to bail them out of any real trouble. And, as noted, their system drives out plenty of people to metastasize to other states.
What are the downsides for them doing it?
“I meant to touch on this. It has been tried before. It doesnt work. It distorts the incentives for buying and selling property. Wealthy companies and individuals who want a stranglehold on politics end up hoarding land and the economy evolves into a feudal system.”
The ideal franchise is limited to people of civic virtue and proven competence. Finding a proxy for those qualities is the trick.
Planet Viking is ruled by the people who wish to vote. Those who chose to vote are responsible for electing a legislature, who is responsible for electing an executive council, who is responsible for electing a chief administrator. The legislature is responsible for creating a budget no later than three weeks after the election, and said budget must be in balance. When a 2/3rds majority of the legislature approves of the budget, each voter has an equal share of the budget billed to them. If they do not pay within a week, they are purged from the voting rolls for life. 4 weeks after the election, the budget is enacted, under the direction of the chief administrator and the guidance of the executive council. Salaries for the administrator and the council are capped at 5 budget shares, legislators have no compensation. If the legislature wishes to raise additional funds, they make the case to the voters, who must pay equally the emergency appropriations.
That sums up why they call them “locusts”.
It makes you wonder, in the US, how much a state’s success is dependent on the character of the residents. The giant reckoning facing California isn’t the product of a year’s excess. They managed to loot that place since at least the 50’s, probably the 30’s. Immense resources, a constant influx of talent, and still the value was sucked out of it and squandered. Now it has a butcher’s bill that it cannot possibly pay. There was a lot of ruin to be had in California.
Now they spill out to AZ, TX, WA, MT, WY, CO … driven by property arbitrage, at least at first. Given the attitudes that have been bred into them for generations, they’re driving the same policies that led CA to where it is.
How much can be destroyed in those states? Will they last as long as CA? I doubt it.
“…how much a state’s success is dependent on the character of the residents…”
100 fucking percent.
I think I agree. I think there’s a bunch of back and forth with the actual environment that selects for a type of person in each state that maybe set the original “character”. I mean, you didn’t settle in Idaho if you couldn’t hack the cold, the mountains, and the difficulty of travel. You get “rugged individuals” in places where anyone else can’t make it.
That has changed in this era of progress. Once you have electricity, HVAC, and 4WD, it gets easier to live where before only the hill people dared.
Ugh, that’s stupidly romantic. Too much bourbon.
Too much bourbon.
a. Don’t be silly
b. What kind? I was just going to pour a Makers Mark.
I have a hankering for Woodford right now. It’s about the only bourbon I can stand.
No love for Willett?
You guys ever try fireball? Best whiskey around.
I am almost out of Woodford. Need to let the liquor fairy know.
Wild Turkey.
It’s not stupidly romantic. It’s true.
Name a culture where it is considered normal for people to wander off into a wilderness full of danger with a mule, a rifle, an axe and a plow and try to hack a farm out of raw land. The people who came here were mostly square pegs, misfits who were willing to risk their lives and families to be free and successful.
Why, look at this very website – a bunch of square pegs in the wilderness.
*Hint – there is no such thing as too much bourbon.
The large population centers can screw it up for everyone else as well. Outside of Chicago, Illinois is a much different place.
It’s why I really think that Alaska should have been chosen for the FSP. It’s physically separated from the continental US. There are already more like-minded people there. Lots of natural resources. Coastal access.
Sure, it’s got mosquitoes as big as hummingbirds (partially kidding) and it can get cold as balls, but those don’t seem too high a price for a shot at at least some state sovereignty and freedom from the lower 48’s meddling.
On the downside, the primary economy of AK is natural resources. The resources and the environment probably crowd out industries that depend on human capital.
There’s plenty of oil extraction in AK, but I’m not aware of the technology for oil extraction being developed in AK.
Now they spill out to AZ, TX, WA, MT, WY, CO … driven by property arbitrage, at least at first. Given the attitudes that have been bred into them for generations, they’re driving the same policies that led CA to where it is
That is happening in CO. Where I am, it is mostly retirees from CA, OR, and WA moving in. It drives up property prices for people who actually work in an area with a depressed job market. Which is I guess the natural order of such things.
If they’re retirees, wouldn’t it at least relieve some of the pressure on the depressed job market? Sure, it would be predominately service jobs, but it would still probably improve, no?
Ya, I imagine it does. Outside of farming, service jobs, Walmart, city and state gov are the big employers here. They buy existing homes, so no uptick in new construction to speak of. Everyone who gets sick of the depressed job market leaves. I have lived here for ten years now, but always worked out of the area. I am now trying to make a go of it here. How that turns out remains to be seen. Hopefully score some remodeling gigs.
Perhaps the conclusion to all of this, if we can make one, it is that the world is a complicated place that often defies the most simple of models.
But what if they are SI swimsuit models. They look super smart.
https://www.facebook.com/ABCNews/videos/10155415770098812/
There’s something similar about those cars, put I can’t quite put my finger on it.
Damn.
+1 Quattro
Maybe Audi can use this in their next ad campaign in an attempt to appeal to people who don’t suck.
They have really stupid drivers?
By “stupid”, you mean “bought a BMW”?
Interesting thought experiment. Isolating the question to strictly economics (jerbs) without consideration of resources, many hands make light work. There is no doubt that we are all much richer with more workers producing more goods and services.
Hey, JB, really good so see you here, bro.
Glad to be here, thanx:)
Same here JB. I went over looking for you a few times, I think you were one of the people I couldn’t find to extend an invite. Is that right? I did so many I kinda lost track. In any case glad to see you here.
Thanks bud:) Yeah, I’ve been kind of hit n’ run (lol) with my commenting over “there” lately:)
I was beginning to think you were ignoring us.
I only ignore trolls:) Will be nice to not have them shitting all over the place!
I was ignoring you, but the Downfall bit pushed me over.
Ah, and there is juris, another one of my intended but missed targets. Very good to have you around here juris
“I tried, but failed”
I’m old and slow and not a particularly small profile – how did you miss?
I was able to track him down finally today. Also, Suthen, I forgot about this. But I think you were trying to track me down a few days ago. But I didn’t notice that comment until the next day and by then I sort of assumed what you were going to tell me. But much thanks for the heads up anyway. I remember Tonio talking about a new site, but then I was unable to post for several day because of work.
BTW, did Gilmore show up here yet?
Soon it’s going to be just him, Fist, Crusty and a feeding frenzy of trolls and other sorts who have trouble with good-faith posting.
It’s going to be like World War Z, only with trolls.
FOE is only coming over if you can guarantee him first post on all the links.
I was over there a while ago and someone mentioned this place to John. He said he’d been meaning to register but was too lazy. Only a matter of time.
His mom did.
You know who else’s mom came over?
Yes Hyperion, you were on my list also. I sent Gil an email and he said he will be here this weekend some time to check things out. I am confident he will stick around like everyone else.
So, there are no comments for the server upgrade post from Our Lady of the Webpage, the indefatigable SP.
Outstanding work, SP. And everyone else. Srsly.
I and many others are standing by with our spare change gathered from our off-season garments, household furniture, automobile floor mats, etc. Srsly, let me know if you need me to kick in. I’ve got USD $4.68 in ready coin.
Outstanding work, SP. And everyone else. Srsly
I would like to second that. I also can get the change out of my cup holder in the truck. There has to be at least 8 bucks in there.
*Raises a mug.* ????
I think I have some of those archaic pieces of paper around that you can use to transfer money. Forgot what they’re called.
Count me in on a donation, too. This place is great. Some of my co-workers have a little coffee fund jar. I’ll send that.
Outstanding work, SP. And everyone else. Srsly.
Yes, great work!
The Laffer Curve and the Jerbs curve just seem like obvious conclusions from the Extreme Value Theorem to me, with the assumptions that zero immigration is bad and unlimited immigration is bad. I’m not a utilitarian, so I don’t really care if unlimited immigration is “bad”. But, if I embrace utilitarianism for the sake of argument, I think unlimited immigration is mostly bad only in a transient sense. No one worries about the fact that low-skilled citizens don’t have the option of making buggy whips, but it was a legitimate worry at the time the automobile was invented with regard to the people who were making buggy whips at that time. No matter where you are on the Jerbs Curve, when you change immigration rates, someone will suffer.
Which is why it’s best not to go down the “protectionist” route to begin with. Same thing with tariffs and subsidies, once you start them, you cant stop without harming the beneficiaries if them. Avoid the bubbles in the first place and you don’t have to worry about busting them.
But…but…someone will suffer!
Hopefully
Disregard this.
What?
You can’t tell me what to do!
I was testing something with my handle, IYKWIMAITTYD.
Go back a cake.
I highly regard this.
OT It’s none of your damn business how much we steal from people!
Yes, we’re all sure that’s true. How come you don’t want to prove it though?
The police like to say that if you’ve done nothing wrong, you should have nothing to hide, but dammit, they keep wanting to hide the shit they do.
File under nanny state wasting money, and the battle against Darwinism:
Walk this way
Wot? No maney?!?
In the last week two people have tried to kill themselves by walking in front of my car in a parking lot (drive a hybrid, usually it’s in electric mode when in a parking lot). Thankfully I actually, you know, pay attention while driving.
I have no clue what’s happened in the past week either. It’d happened like one other time in the 2.5 years I’ve had this car.
Wasn’t someone trying to push a reg that those cars had to make more noise? You should outfit it with a horn that sounds like well tuned V8 with the pedal to the floor.
Maybe there’s just something about you that drives people to want to kill themselves.
What if all the property in the city and for some distance surrounding it was all owned by one person or joint-stock company managed by one or a few people? What if there was no voting at all? What if I, the owner, didn’t give a shit about the feelings of my renters as long as they paid the rent? What if an influx of outsiders made it possible to both charge higher rents and pay lower labor costs?
As long as I’m happy, things are working fine. I’m getting a nice return on both the rental and labor ends of my business. As long as there are enough people clamoring for housing and jobs (and retail or manufacturing space) to keep the arrows pointed in the right directions I see no reason to take anyone’s wishes or feelings into account. What do I care if you’ve been here 20 years? You’ve probably earned some sort of discount or bonus for your “loyalty” but if the new guys can tempt me with a better deal (everything considered) you’re out.
Of course if the arrows start trending in the wrong directions I have some decisions to make. Lower rents and/or build more housing (or retail or manufacturing space) pay a little more for scarce labor or automate more. I’ll do what’s best for me. If I fuck up people will leave. Enough of that and I start losing money so I’d better make sure to keep my customers just satisfied or happy enough to keep me happy. No reason to go overboard of course. I’m shooting for an equilibrium that I’ll likely never quite attain or stay at for very long which means I’m constantly working to juggle *all* the various factors to keep things from sliding to far in any one direction. That’s very difficult already, so why would I want to include voting in that?
See it’s all the Price System. That’s what works. Prices tell you what you need to know and they do it automatically and relentlessly.
On the other hand voting is a horribly inefficient way to suss out what people want. It also leads to fractiousness and resentments that abide for a long-while. Voting treats people as if their opinions matter. They don’t. What matters it what they are willing to pay, in real money, to get what they want.
(I sure hope that HTML worked. Wish I had a preview.)
This sounds like explicit modern feudalism. Moldbug talked about this a lot. From what recall, in a society that is cool with it, it works as long as the King remains rational, and as long as outside influences do not create a situation where the interests of the King end up fully at odds with the interests of the Subjects.
Well, people are free to go. I don’t own them. They’re customers not serfs.
To keep myself from being too enmeshed in the lives of the renters and laborers I would likely lease out plots of the city to others who would then do the work of attracting clients. That way I have no direct contact with them and being one remove apart them insulates them from some irrationality. There would likely be many steps between them and me as the person who leases from me would lease smaller plots to others who lease even smaller plots to others. There would be contracts spelling out responsibilities and prohibitions (etc.) all along the lease-chain which would give me a strong financial incentive to not be a fuck-wit.
So I don’t see “feudalism” as the right word at all.
I disagree. The only way I see this as not really close to feudalism (functionally equivalent?) is if you assume that there are no other polities. There’s no other equivalent property owners. Or, you assume that every single other polity works the same way, so there’s somewhere else to go. In fact, the “financial incentive not to be a fuck-wit” pretty much requires this. There need to be alternatives. People can’t leave unless there’s somewhere to go.
You’ve described the human condition. We’ve had frontiers for thousands and thousands of years. People who don’t like where they are have gotten up and left. Right now, there’s no unclaimed property. There are no frontiers that the enterprising can stake out land-based property. We might find some or make some at some point, which will create a huge benefit for everyone. But that hasn’t happened. We’re doing it with intellectual property, but it is not a great frontier for the meat creatures.
.
Of course I’m assuming there are other places to go. How could there not be? These places would be my competition.
Anyway I’m confused…if there are other places to go *it is* functionally equivalent to feudalism but if they don’t *it is not* functionally equivalent to feudalism? Shouldn’t that be the other way round?
I apologize for having the single negatives there. I’m sure you can unwind it.
Using this world as an example, there is no workable place (right now) to create your own polity. You are assuming that there’s always somewhere better than “here” to go. If you consider this planet, there’s no real unclaimed land. If you’re in the best of a bad lot, there’s no place to stake your claim and do it better. This may change in the future, but it isn’t the reality now.
Feudalism doesn’t work without an escape valve.
Not to mention that your claim to property only goes so far as you are able to maintain it.
I’m just building a hypothetical as was the OP. So the actual conditions on this planet don’t concern me for sake of this exercise.
Understood. I reflexively crashed my way beyond that.
Well hellooooooo, everybody!
Impressive site! Good job well done!
OMG, the site is ruined now!
*looks behind himself* Why? Did dajjal follow me?
Alternate reply: geesh, feel the love
Alternate alternate reply: CENSORED
DenverJ, don’t you recognize a proper libertarian welcome when you see one? OMG the site is runed now – translation – welcome aboard, bro.
Here, have a Monocle
Other site secret spy drone /ON
Tony: I hate you libertarians! You’re destroying the planet!
spy drone /OFF
I’m spooling up the death ray I built on the moon. Anyone have a fix on Tony? This Tesla-quality death ray will split the Earth in four equal sections (like a grapefruit), but you’ll all be satisfied that Tony got killed first if you get me his lat/long.
Just peeked in. Wouldn’t recommend it.
Yeah, it’s ugly.
BTW Hyp, this place isn’t a secret. If the trolls show up, they’ll be gone before they even get to comment.
I know that. But I still would not intentionally key the trolls to it’s existence. Shreek has already threatened to come over here. I’m sure the asshats will use every troll method to evade detection. Rest assured, if shreek makes it through and I’m around, I’ll recognize the shithead in about one sentence.
He has only threatened to come here? If he is wanting to put a stick in the eye of libertarians why would he not just pop on over?
I have long suspected that some of the trolls are mercs being paid by lefty outfits to shit up threads at conservative and libertarian sites. He probably hasn’t come over here because he isnt authorized to…he is assigned to Reason and probably some other sites. At least he isnt authorized yet.
Does this make me paranoid?
Hahaha, this is an entire business model. You aren’t paranoid…you’re missing out on revenue!
You would think they would hire better trolls. Hiring half-wits is an insult to us.
Using half-wits is supposed to make us over-confident, then the real geniuses can swoop in for the kill. Unfortunately due to a mix-up they actually sent in the real geniuses first.
I fully expected at least one Mad Max reference in this article. Good read.