Cast your mind back to 2006. It wasn’t a good year for the Republicans; not with George W and his muddled and seemingly endless war. This was the time when a New Republic article came out – one that is still referenced today – concerning the supposed new political fusion called Liberaltarians. There were, of course, several responses to this. Lost in the mix was John Derbyshire’s take. This was before his expulsion from Nation Review for saying, to put it kindly, less than politically correct things about African-Americans. But I won’t dwell on that, but will instead cover his idea of Libertarianism in One Country which, as to be expected, involves immigration restriction.
First some snippets to put this in context:
A liberal, in the current sense of the term, is a person who favors a massive welfare state, expansive and intrusive government, high taxation, preferential allocation of social goods to designated “victim” groups, and deference to international bureaucracies in matters of foreign policy.
It is not difficult to see why such a person would favor lax policies towards both legal and illegal immigration. Immigration, legal or otherwise, concerns the crossing of borders, and a liberal regards borders, along with all other manifestations of the nation-state, with distaste. “International” trumps “national” in every context. The preferences a citizen might have for his own countrymen over foreigners, for his own language over other tongues, for his own traditions and folkways over imported ones, are all, in the minds of a modern liberal, manifestations of ugly, primitive, and outdated notions — nativism, xenophobia, racism. The liberal proudly declares himself a citizen of the world, and looks with scorn and contempt on those narrow souls who limit their citizenly affections to just one nation.
This is some pretty strong proto-alt-right stuff. Viewed eleven years on it prophesied, though to what degree is uncertain, of the rise of Trumpism. There are several issues that I have with this description of liberalism, but let’s move on to the meat of his problem with libertarians.
The affection of liberals for mass immigration, both legal and illegal, is thus very easy to understand. Why, though, do libertarians favor it? And why do I think they are nuts to do so?
So far as the first of those questions is concerned, I confess myself baffled. I think that what is going on here is just a sort of ideological overshoot. Suspicion of state power is of course at the center of classical libertarianism. If the state is making and enforcing decisions about who may settle in territories under the state’s jurisdiction, that is certainly a manifestation of state power, and therefore comes under libertarian suspicion. Just why libertarians consider it an obnoxious manifestation — well, that’s where my bafflement begins. (That some exercises of state power are necessary and un-obnoxious is conceded by nearly all libertarians.)
After some quotes from Charles Murray, Derbyshire continues:
As to why I think libertarians are nuts to favor mass uncontrolled immigration from the third world: I think they are nuts because their enthusiasm on this matter is suicidal to their cause. Their ideological passion is blinding them to a rather obvious fact: that libertarianism is a peculiarly American doctrine, with very little appeal to the huddled masses of the third world. If libertarianism implies mass third-world immigration, then it is self-destroying. Libertarianism is simply not attractive either to illiterate peasants from mercantilist Latin American states, or to East Asians with traditions of imperial-bureaucratic paternalism, or to the products of Middle Eastern Muslim theocracies.
And here lies, at least to my eyes, the battle of Open Borders within the (American) libertarian community. What is the effect of culture on an individual? Is there something about American Dynamism that is unique in our historical place? Or, to put it another way, are the concepts of freedom, liberty, and, most importantly of all, individualism truly universal? This outlook, one started by the Reformation, created in the firestorm of 18th century European philosophy, and finally crystallized in the American Revolution may be unique in history. Or maybe not. I’ll let the commentators hash that one out since I know I don’t have an answer.
Now Mr. Derbyshire goes a bit off the rails. I wouldn’t let Stalin run a lemonade stand because he would do more than squeeze the lemons.
The people who made Russia’s Communist revolution in 1917 believed that they were merely striking a spark that would ignite a worldwide fire. They regarded Russia as a deeply unpromising place in which to “build socialism,” her tiny urban proletariat and multitudinous medieval peasantry poor material from which to fashion New Soviet Man. Their hope was that the modern industrial nations of the world would take inspiration from them — that the proletarians of those nations would rise up against their capitalist masters and inaugurate a new age of world history, coming to the aid of the Russian pioneers.
When it was plain that none of this was going to happen, the party ideologues got to work revising the revolutionary dogmas. One of them — it was actually Joseph Stalin — came up with a new slogan: “Socialism in One Country!”
Derbyshire’s final point:
I think that libertarians should take a leaf from Stalin’s book. They should acknowledge that the USA is, of all nations, the one whose political traditions offer the most hospitable soil for libertarianism. Foreigners, including foreigners possessed of the urge to come and settle in modern, welfare-state America, are much less well-disposed towards libertarianism.
If less than one in seven American voters is inclined to libertarianism, then there is much missionary work to be done among present-day American citizens. To think that this missionary effort will be made any easier by a steady stream of arrivals from foreign parts, most of which have never known rational, consensual government, is highly unrealistic, to the point of delusion.
That is why I say that libertarians who favor mass immigration are nuts. If there is any hope at all for libertarianism, it rests in the libertarianism of my title: libertarianism in one country.
What say you? Is libertarianism a unique strain of political thought that resides most strongly in American tradition? Or is it universal – something that transcends across time and culture? If one was to magically transport to Xia Dynasty in China, or to the height of the Roman Empire, would the citizens there understand individualism and freedom in the ways that we do? Or, to put it in more modern terms, would a person with a tribal background, let’ say from the depths of Borneo, understand the basics of the philosophy? (Am I beginning to sound like a certain judge?)
No.
Why not?
Because the judge didn’t repeat the same question stated different ways, he used the chain of questions to write the article in the mind’s answers.
Did he?
He did?
I will say having a paragraph consisting of nothing but questions is an annoying tic. And I have noticed my own blathering come out like that. Eww.
Yes.
They should be bullet pointed.
Or numbered.
1) Why?
2) What benefit is there?
3) What about those who find this annoying?
– Because
– Order
– Dustbin of history
With lots of equal signs.
no = those should be scattered at random within a paragraph.
I think that a key component of what makes what we know as small-l western libertarianism is that it is reactionary. Its value and importance only has relevance since it opposes what we see as an oppressive state. Should we ever succeed in achieving it, our raison d’etre vanishes.
“Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.”
This is the rub isn’t it? In a way liberty is least nearly-self-destroying because it requires eternal vigilance just to keep it going. We are a tribal animal. There will always be impulses to use force on others, to take their stuff, that cause liberty to constantly have to be defended or lost.
In a way, it’s harder than setting up a free system, because if you’re starting at zero, you can set all the noble goals and intentions at the outset. The constant drip of one more law, one more ordnance, one more regulation is insidious.
In a way, it violates the Mattis Rule.
Libertarians: Yay! We’ve built a sociopolitical culture that represents our commitment to self-determination, freedom and equality of opportunity!
Mattis: OK, now what?
Libertarians: …. ummm … *better* ass sex?
Mattis: OK, now what?
Libertarians: We mind our own business.
or
Libertarians: We keep it that way.
We leave you alone! Aggressively!
We bomb the shit out of our intentions to bomb the shit out of you.
Libertarianism is a plot to take over the world, and then leave everybody the hell alone. (Evil laugh)
“Or, to put it another way, are the concepts of freedom, liberty, and, most importantly of all, individualism truly universal? This outlook, one started by the Reformation”
The main thing the Reformation did was help promote Erastianism – the state running the Church. Not all Protestants were into that, of course, but of course those Protestants who happened to be secular rulers generally followed that idea.
The dignity of the human person comes from Christian doctrine predating the Reformation. Click my handle: Frank Meyer (before becoming a Papist himself) describes the transition from the spiritual dominance of the state under paganism to the spiritual centrality of the individual under Christianity, long before Luther.
You are a fine papist. Catholicism built the universality of natural rights through multiple thinkers including the School of Selmenaca. Leave it to the protestants to steal the great treasures that Catholics have imparted on Western Civilization.
Also, the American Founders were influenced more by the comparatively sensible Scottish Enlightenment, not as much by the nutty French version.
The French provided a second rate version of Enlightenment. I blame Rousseau
There is quite a bit of overlap between professed classical liberals and Presbyterians
Culturalreligious appropriation.Also, patting my own back for the HTML code typed on a phone working right with no preview button! Suck it, amateurs!
While the dignity of the human person and a focus on individual (as opposed to collective) spirituality were ancient parts of the Christian tradition, the Protestant Reformation birthed the doctrine of the universal priesthood, which was a radical individualistic break from the Catholic hierarchy and a far more significant development than Erastianism.
I will confess up front that I am not a fan of Derbyshire’s (or the Unz Review, which he regularly writes for now) and I generally favor mass legal immigration (I support borders and vetting of all immigrants). I think the US does a fantastic job at imparting ‘Americanism’ onto its immigrants (full disclosure, I am the child of two immigrants). The reason why the US is fantastic at imparting American ideals is because it is easy to assimilate (to be considered ‘American’ one only really needs to speak English and blow off fireworks on the Fourth of July) and ‘assimilation’ has less to do with ethnic, racial, or religious background than adopting the civic religion of classical liberalism.
The danger is when we start to erode the ideals of the Enlightenment as non-important to the character of America (which I think is happening). So, I don’t fear mass migration, I only fear mass abandonment of American ideals.
^ This. American Exceptionalism is our unique ability to absorb people from other cultures, appropriate what works from what they bring, and leave behind what doesn’t. That’s why we have (for example) yoga studios, sitars, and curry, but not suttee; salsa but not child sacrifice; Hollywood and stand-up comedy, but not stoning of adulterers.
Also… and why Paris has banlieus and we have Lincolnwood and Orland Park.
Lincolnwood and Orland Park? The suburbs?
Yes, affluent suburbs with large numbers of Muslim immigrants.
Excellent point. I didn’t know that Orland Park had so many Muslim immigrants.
The area around it especially. Reputedly, there are more Palestinians there than there are in Ramallah, though I don’t know how to confirm this. I can confirm that it’s the best source for great falafel in the Chicago area.
It has a lot of golf too.
I’ve found the Albany Park Neighborhood in Chicago to have some phenomenal falafel
I think Swiss and I need to explore this further.
Na’am!
Conversely we also have Lombard and Bridgeview. Those wouldn’t be considered affluent by most people, but they don’t see smashed windows and torched vehicles either.
Are you thinking of Oak Lawn? A little farther up Southwest Highway?
Could be Oak Lawn. I’m not terribly familiar with the geographic intricacies of the area.
Also, the reply buttons seem to disappear once comments are nested beyond a certain point, so I have no idea where this one is going to land.
When I was growing up, and Papa was still with us, I understand (from Papa), that Chicago in the eighties had a bigger Polish population than Warsaw did.
Ah, the Windy City. Grew up in Aurora, and went to Columbia College downtown. Now I’m in southern CA.
I don’t miss the winters (or the bugs & humidity in the summer). But, man do I miss the food, atmosphere and culture.
American Exceptionalism is why I had a damned fine Korean BBQ short-rib taco served to me by a vegetarian while in Nashville last spring. As you say, we take the bits of other cultures that we like or find useful, modify them as needed, and proceed on our merry and tasteless way. This is a wonderful, wonderful thing. As much as I love tradition, I don’t feel bound by it, which is why I enjoy knowing how to set a table properly and drink scotch like a gentleman but walk outside to get the mail in boxer-briefs.
Yeah, that’s why whenever I hear someone whine about “cultural appropriation,” I want to violate the NAP and punch them in the pants. Cultural Appropriation is what makes us stronger, better, and far more interesting.
This is an excellent point, one I hadn’t thought much about. Americans are excellent at this; probably better than anyone else on the planet. It is indeed why so many disparate peoples can find a home and be comfortable here.
On balance, we tend to care more about what’s good and what works than where you came from.
I check out Unz once a week just to see what they are thinking. Some of it is good, some I dismiss as trash.
Derb doesn’t bother me – he likes to say things we know but are embarrassed to admit.
“I think the US does a fantastic job at imparting ‘Americanism’ onto its immigrants”
Agreed, but what makes you think that ‘Americanism’ is the same today as it was in its classical liberal heyday? The dominant political culture is a form of FDR- and LBJ-inspired social democracy (particularly in the media and other elements of acculturation). Classical liberalism is vestigial to what it means to be American, which is why old fogies and conservatives are the only ones who pay it any mind — and soon enough, not even them.
Even you’ll have to admit that there is a limit to this. There are billions of people who would love to live here. We don’t have the means to accommodate that many.
And the elephant in the room is that your parents probably came in through the legal immigration process.
When you say “I think the US does a fantastic job at imparting ‘Americanism’ onto its immigrants” it might be easy to forget that by having closed borders and a legal process to come, work, become naturalized, and attain citizenship that comparing your experience to illegal immigration is apples and oranges.
We look at the result and say, immigrants start more businesses, they commit fewer crimes than natives, etc. But there’s a logical fallacy there: survivorship bias. Even looking at illegal immigrants there is survivorship bias, because there are a certain number of criminal illegals that we simply deport no matter who is in power.
It’s much easier to get people to adapt to your society when they can’t form enclaves and avoid adaptation. While immigration is kept below a certain point and deportations of criminals and others who don’t adapt is the policy, then it should be expected that adaptation will succeed. That is the whole point of the process. If over the course of the next year we imported enough Chinese people that there were equal numbers of native Chinese and Americans, I don’t think our culture is similarly inclined to succeed at acclimation.
I think the want to be left alone to your own devices is pretty universal, but I also think very few people are content to leave others alone, for some reason.
The love of control over others seems to me to be just as universal as the want to be left alone to your own devices.
It’s not contradictory to want to be the one giving the orders while not being bound by someone else’s. That doesn’t make the desire to be one’s own master a sign of agreement with other aspects of libertarian philosophy.
You are right–they are not contradictory.
I guess I tend to think folks would be inclined to treat others the way they’d prefer to be treated, so it’s confusing that folks who would want to be left alone…won’t leave others alone. That just doesn’t follow for me, but I shouldn’t expect most human beings to be rational, logical, etc.
It makes sense if you think about it not as a desire to be left alone, but as a desire not to be transgressed against. The person views their own moral code as the correct one, so any meddling done in favor of it (like what they would do to others) is not transgressive, while any done in opposition to it (like what others would do to them) is transgressive. Therefor they are treating others as they would want to be treated: treated morally (from their perspective, of course).
Leave me alone.
No.
Gosh you’re disagreeable today.
He would like everyone to get off his lawn. He is past due to eat his wood flavored gruel.
Even to the point of incivility? Ghastly.
Don’t tell me how to live my life! (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
CIA!
*points and hisses*
And…you screwed up my reply. How uncivil.
Your avatar looks like a glass dildo right out of the kiln. I’m calling you a fragile tasteless dick head. 😉
I always want to reply to you so it looks like you’re looking down on me from above, like an Ångel.
D’aww!
I mean, you know I climbed my way up from the other place, right?
Forevermore, I will read your postings with the sound of Orff’s “O, Fortuna” in the background.
… Are you guys not already doing this?
Well, i *used* to hum “Quark, Strangeness and Charm” until now. *shrug*
Satan was an angel too.
You forgot to ask her “did it hurt?”
Wow is that throwing a chair? skillz
I thought it was flipping a table.
Ragequit?
+1 Tableflip
*puts the table back* ┬─┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)
I would think that there would be a considerable portion of immigrants that would come to the US to escape from less free places.
Wouldn’t it be smart and logical to encourage people looking for personal freedom to immigrate?
Indeed, though some people take the lesson from tyranny that “we better join a powerful Team in this country which will protect us more than we were protected in the country we left. If that Team does some stuff that gets criticized, well, those critics are xenophobes anyway.”
That sounds awfully familiar, almost as though you have experienced such a thing. Tell us more.
Not directly – my subgroup is a bit too small to court – but I learn about it in researching, say, Irish immigrants. Democrats were like “here, let us get you food and jobs, and you don’t mind that we’re the racist party, do you? I mean, you don’t like black people anyway!”
If you can’t beat em, join ’em – then be them. Say what you will about drunken and dysfunctional potatodraggers, they’re the only immigrant group I’m aware of where the baseline American stereotype includes “is a cop.”
You assume they make the connection between less free and poverty. Those who fled European Communism were so immersed in the ideology that they make the connection easily. I don’t believe those coming from the Third World simply to escape poverty make that connection. In fact I’ve talked to some who make the opposite connection and attribute American prosperity to big government programs.
My father-in-law is one of those, and I find it baffling. He immigrated as a boy from Nazi Germany. He’s seen first hand what the state is capable of, but he believes the American government is somehow different and well-intentioned. He’ll complain that taxes are too high (his taxes of course, not everyone else’s taxes), the lines at the DMV are too long, the Veteran’s Affairs folks don’t give him decent care, and yet his solution is always more more more government. I really can’t wrap my head around this outlook. It’s like having a broken down car and thinking the solution is to pay for another broken down car.
It’s not really a secret. They’ve been conditioned – subconsciously or not – to believe the private option is a bad option for the ‘greater good’. Hence, they don’t consider the good it can offer. So, Top Men it is.
Did you point out that the VA only serves AMERICAN veterans?
Yeah, nawt damned ex-Natseez!
*spits tobacco loudly
“are the concepts of freedom, liberty, and, most importantly of all, individualism truly universal? ” No, not really
“Is libertarianism a unique strain of political thought that resides most strongly in American tradition? ” – no, not really
” If one was to magically transport to Xia Dynasty in China, or to the height of the Roman Empire, would the citizens there understand individualism and freedom in the ways that we do?” some would most wont. But that applies to Italy and China now
What say you?
Derbyshire is apparently a paranoid idiot who fears those not exactly like himself. Sad.
To me, this, and many other things libertarians often argue about can be boiled down to the Pragmatic vs. Ideological debate.
Only anarchism is purely libertarian. The question for non-anarchists is, where to draw the line. And really, there’s no easy answer to this question. Pragmatists can quite correctly point out that pure libertarianism isn’t on offer, and may not ever be, so better half a loaf than none. More ideological individuals can quite correctly point out that without a clear limiting principal, the line that one draws can always move ever more away from liberty, as long as the other choices at any given time are perceived as “worse”. It can boil down to an argument to simply always vote straight-ticket republican, since from a libertarian standpoint, the R will almost always be closer in orientation than the D. But at that point, how are you different from any other republican partisan? The winning candidate doesn’t care if you voted for them reluctantly or enthusiastically – your vote counts the same.
I really, honestly don’t have any answers to these questions, and it’s something I admit to spending a good deal more time thinking about than I should, since none of my though-droppings are ever going to amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world anyway.
But this is our hill. And these are our beans.
The question for non-anarchists is, where to draw the line.
Pretty much, yeah. And its worse than that – once you draw the line, you have to keep it from creeping further and further out.
The Constitution actually draws a decentish night-watchman line. And that worked about as well as these things ever do for awhile. And then it stopped working so well, and by now I would say the line has been functionally erased. Why? The political institutions didn’t change. The culture did.
Complete adherence to the NAP is anarchy. If you have a government, it needs to be funded. Unless you can come up with a method of voluntary taxation, that means forcing individuals to pay for government. Force means you violated the NAP.
Liberty is not boundless. There are natural limits. And therefore liberty must be thought of a something to be maximized.
Liberty doesn’t mean you may do whatever you want. There is a natural place where your liberty becomes someone else’s tyranny. That place is where your rights infringe upon someone else’s. Liberty is maximized at this point, for everyone. Your rights and my rights are perfectly balanced at this point. Equal. If anyone is given more rights (meaning the ability to harm another), liberty is no longer maximized for all. More power for you becomes tyranny for me. This is essentially the NAP.
If we agree that the end goal is to maximize liberty, anarchy cannot work. Without a means to defend rights, someone will eventually take them from you, be it another government or a rival gang. This means purchasing protection of your rights (government). A last word in force. Problem being, if the protector does anything above and beyond protecting your rights, you (somebody) lose(s) liberty. So to maximize liberty (for everyone) there is a natural boundary here as well. Liberty is at a maximum where government protects your rights and nothing more.
Hence, the line that you ask for…
1. A person may do as they wish PROVIDED in doing so they don’t infringe upon the rights of another.
2. The ONLY legitimate function of government is to protect the rights of the individual.
Liberty is maximized and equal.
(Rights above means negative rights. The only positive right you have is 2 itself)
And yes, I realize 2 is a necessary exception to 1.
Is libertarianism a unique strain of political thought that resides most strongly in American tradition?
I think to answer this question we have to examine the premises on which libertarianism lies.
1) Innate human dignity – certainly not universally accepted
2) Limited authority of governments – definitely not universally accepted
3) Consent of the governed – nope, not universally accepted
4) Individual sovereignty – nope.
I think that libertarianism grew because of the unique situation where colonists were detached from an overextended empire, theology and philosophy began to emphasize the individual, and firearms had proliferated to the point that some backwater rebels could do serious damage against the elite military force of the time.
Without that exact mix of circumstances, the Enlightenment is a mere footnote in history, and libertarianism is stillborn.
If one was to magically transport to Xia Dynasty in China, or to the height of the Roman Empire, would the citizens there understand individualism and freedom in the ways that we do?
I suspect those people would be busily engaged in their daily lives, and trying to stay off the State’s radar, much as most of us do today.
An educated Roman would recognize the basic concepts of freedom and individualism. The Xia Dynasty people wouldn’t understand a bit of your crazy talk. The rift between Western and Eastern civilizations was already apparent then.
Not so. It never became the dominant political philosophy, but there were recognizably libertarian writings in China 2500 years ago.
Not dating back to the Xia dynasty, perhaps, but that’s because that dynasty was from nearly 3,000 years ago, far predating the Roman Empire. You wouldn’t have found a bunch of supporters of individual rights in any civilization in the world at that time.
Good leaders reach solutions, and then stop. They do not dare to rely on force.
The more laws and commands there are, the more thieves and robbers there will be.
When the government is quite unobtrusive, people are indeed pure. When the government is quite prying, people are indeed conniving.
People are hard to govern. The rulers interfere with too much. That is why people are hard to govern.
The supreme rulers are hardly known by their subjects. The lesser are loved and praised. The even lesser are feared. The least are despised.
-Chinese philosophy from two thousand years ago.
Guess it didn’t take.
Apparently, it never does.
*peruses stack of Code of Federal Register printouts*
There was a huge ass civil war going on at the time. And then the Qin dynasty emerged and purged the hell out of all those wrong-thinking people, burned a lot of books, basically made it so there’s entire schools of Chinese philosophy we know nothing about, etc.
What I find fascinating is that the flowering of Chinese philosophy occurred concurrently with the flowering of Greek philosophy. If the Qin had taken the more tolerant approach of the Macedonians and Romans, who allowed Greek philosophy to flourish after their conquests, thereby creating the foundation for Western thought, the world may have been very different.
Oh, and as for being unique to America, the ideals of minimalist government go back to at least Laozi. Politics weren’t front and center important to Taoism, but when politics are remarked upon, it always comes across as staunchly libertarian.
From what I remember of the seminars at my old tai chi center, there’s a sense of trying to get everything harmoniously aligned in Taoism. Everything following its nature. And one interpretation of that is to have as voluntary a society as possible.
Around 1000 BC the Prophet Samuel made one of the great rants ever against kings and big government in general.
And, like all libertarians, he was promptly ignored by most of the people.
Take a look around the contemporary world and try to find a country with any sort of mass libertarian ethos. There’s negligible support for it in the USA, let alone anywhere else. I doubt we’ll be importing many libertarians, real or potential. Best to work first on what we have.
What makes you think most people here understand individualism and freedom? I think the chances we’ll have an ideologically libertarian society are pretty low regardless of immigration, at least for the near future
The best hope is for a practical libertarian society, that is a society where the way people behave and what they tolerate are libertarian in nature. That will mainly happen because technology will render authoritarian efforts more difficult, and future generations will just grow up with the tools to circumvent them. When an idea, such as printing your own weapons and drugs, is one people have known their entire lives, will they really tolerate government meddling? I don’t think so.
I think this is a good point. Libertarianism may come about or may not, but if it does, it won’t be because the Libertarian Party starts winning presidential elections. It will be because people slowly involve the state in their day to day lives less and less. It will be when we learn to live around the state, not when we dramatically cut back the state. The state will stay in place, if impotently, because there almost never has been, and mostly likely never will be, the political will to actually kill the thing.
That IS precisely the only way it will only happen. Spontaneously, voluntarily and organically.
The politics will follow.
That is, ‘that IS precisely the only way it will happen’.
If not, then libertarianism is merely a passing fad that will amount to nothing in the long run, immigration or no.
That’s just silly. We have all noticed the phenomenon that people who have fled Eastern European socialist dictatorships, for example, are markedly more pro-free market and individual liberties than home-grown people. My experience with Central American immigrants has been the same.
I guess it depends on the person coming here – I always hope for ” [Place] sucked, I like the freedom here!” over “I had a bad feudal lord, I want a more generous one”. As libertarians, we can only try to show how being free is better for all.
This is the open debate that should have happened years ago at the old place.
I have always been of the opinion that opening the immigration flood gates is a decision that can only take place AFTER the welfare state is dismantled. Opening the borders before that is madness.
The counterargument to that has always been, that it is a crypto-argument for never allowing mass immigration, because the welfare state is, realistically, never ever ever going away, ever. No one can reform entitlements. No one can even talk about reforming entitlements without being crucified. And so you shouldn’t sacrifice one libertarian principal (freedom of association) due to the existence of another anti-libertarian structure (the welfare state).
The counter-counter argument is that adding more people to welfare is effectively “robbing” existing taxpayers, and so abetting aggression.
And so down the endless spiral of ideology vs. pragmatism that I spoke of up-thread.
I guess I’m more pragmatic than ideological. There is a chance right now to put a stake through the heart of a giant federal program – but the Republicans are too weak-hearted to fulfill their promises. Libertarians meanwhile, have their panties in a bunch over how many unskilled Mexicans and Muslims we allow into the country.
One my peeves with the old place was they were horrible about choosing which battles to fight – to the point that it felt intentional. They seemed to prefer tilting at windmills and signalling their harmlessness to their DC friends.
(*do you mean freedom of movement?)
i think the problem with that case re: immigration is that it seems to prioritize an abstract principle while sacrificing tangible ones.
meaning = a genuine pragmatism would prioritize maximizing the liberties of US citizens, at the expense of the liberties of non-citizens who have no shared interest in limited government
No, I meant freedom of association, though freedom of movement can also work.
If I, as a business owner, am not allowed to employ people of my choosing (provided they also wish to be employed at my terms) due to their immigration status, then my freedom to associate is being denied.
Freedom of association has been dead here since the courts went to work on the 1964 Civil Rights Act. You will have to resurrect it before that argument can work.
I didn’t realize you were being barred from moving to where the cheap labor was?
That’s not how freedom of association works, as I suspect you well know.
If I have private property, and the means to transport the person here on my own dime, and the person is willing, then any state-imposed impediments to that are an impingement on freedom of association. If I’m forced to go there, then that word, forced, is the crux of the problem from a libertarian philosophical perspective.
i’m not sure what you just described was anyone ‘forcing’ anything at all. but whatever.
Are you really saying that as long as you can move to where something isn’t impeded or prohibited, then your rights aren’t being denied?
So I suppose drug criminalization isn’t denying anyone their rights, because hey, they could always move to Portugal if they want to partake in decriminalized drugs, right?
no, not at all.
I was remarking on the whole “to transport the person here” thing (versus going to where they are), which you seem to think is a trivial matter of logistics, but which also sort of handwaves away the whole “citizenship” thing as irrelevant.
just so you’re clear= i’m more or less 100% in agreement with you on the basic principle of the matter
i just think of it in ‘freedom of movement’ terms rather than association; i also think that simply dissolving the idea of citizenship entirely has a lot of side-effects which you may not be considering. I dont think it should be a pre-requisite to be able to work, mind you – i just think that its a very problematic idea which too often libertarians pretend ‘doesn’t matter’.
its a conceptual problem because we grant the state authority to ‘protect the rights of citizens’;
but if you simply enlarge that to “anyone who happens to ‘be here'” and simultaneously insist that *anyone* has the right to be here (and bar the state the ability to discriminate)…. you can see how that quickly becomes ‘giving the state a mandate to protect *everyone’s* rights” which is basically carte blache for an expansionist state, and anathema to limited govt.
I understand you better now. I think we may disagree somewhat on the significance of the semantics involved, but thank you for providing clarification, it makes your point much clearer.
You are free to open up a business in their country of origin and abiding by their laws and trade with ours.
Would you clutch your “freedom of association” closely were it a battalion of tanks rolling over your border? They seem like people who want to associate. Let’s go over and have a friendly chat about it.
And would you, personally, house them? How about as neighbors in your own neighborhood? You’re not allowed to move if the place turns into a shithole where people dump garbage in the streets, cockroaches and bedbugs fill your apartment complexes. It’s easy enough to say you support something when the results are dumped in someone else’s lap and you can simply move out you find it encroaching on you because you have the means and simultaneously bemoan “white flight” as racist, like the left does.
And what of other people’s freedom not to associate? I don’t want to wake up each morning to some jackass calling people to prayer with a amped-up PA system from his fucking minaret. I like peace and quiet, it’s part of my culture, and I don’t think it’s wrong to expect newcomers to adapt to the values of my culture if they want to live near me.
I struggle with freedom of association in the immigration realm.
If it truly is a right, that would mean that there really isn’t any possible limit on immigration (other than as a penalty imposed after due process).
Keep in mind, there are Americans who want to associate with violent criminals, or with someone who has a communicable disease, or who wants to fly airplanes into buildings. Is their freedom of association being violated if we keep criminals, the diseased, and terrorists out of the country?
Freedom of association includes the freedom not to associate. Its one thing, in the business you own and control, to say who you have the freedom to not associate with; its entirely up to you (well, absent laws to the contrary). Its another thing entirely out in the community. You are pretty well forced to associate (for some values of the term) with everyone in your community. Immigration becomes forced association with the immigrants, again for some values of the term “association”. I think much of immigration law actually has roots in the idea that the nation is a community, and there are just some people you don’t want in your community.
What in the fuck are you going on about? How on earth do you equate employment with invading armies? You realize tanks rolling over property violates the NAP, and therefore isn’t germane to the discussion about employment, right? Even loud minarets can be a violation, just like someone screaming outside your house at 3 a.m.
I absolutely think it’s wrong. Would you deny someone the right to buy property near you until they passed some sort of cultural assimilation test?
And yeah, if you don’t like how they keep their lawns or whatever, tough shit. Get more money and move out. Private property rights, how the fuck do they work?
I don’t think it’s wrong to expect newcomers to adapt to the values of my culture if they want to live near me.
Traditionally, people who moved to a new community to become part of it by adapting to it are “immigrants”. People who move to a new community to make it adapt to them are called “invaders” or “colonizers”.
If you want to become an American, come on over. If you want me to be a [insert craphole], stay away.
Well Dean, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that. What makes someone a colonizer or invader, to me, is that they institute their own political institutions, which are related to, but a separate thing from, culture.
If some Africans want to come here and bring their African culture and speak their African languages, I’m perfectly fine with that, so long as they don’t violate the NAP. That point is literally the beginning and ending of it to me.
*edit
I don’t have any further ability to reply to the below. A reply to Zero Sum would be too lengthy, but Dean, to your point about moving – we’re talking past each other. I don’t consider living next to someone as being forced to associate, so having to move is not forcing you to do so to exercise that right. Property lines are the only thing that matters. If the guy isn’t on your property, you aren’t being forced to associate with him. It sounds like you consider everyone in a neighborhood to be “associating” with each other. If that’s so, we’re not even having the same conversation.
Depends. If it’s not your property they’re rolling over and they haven’t fired on anyone, but they’re heading towards yours, do you still have a right to complain or mount a defense?
I’m trying to establish the bounds of what you think qualifies as “free association.” There are obviously limits every sane person will impose.
Of course. It’s called “closed borders.” If you violate our laws, our community standards, bring disease and unhygienic practices that attract vermin, and ideologically incompatible views you’ll indoctrinate your children with (and probably try to indoctrinate mine with through public education) that threaten my freedoms, I absolutely am on board with you being deported, by force if necessary. The test is whether you come to parasitize public services to the detriment of your neighbor and overthrow his way of life through mass importation of your own. If so, you’ve got to go.
The alternative is the AnCap wet dream where everyone must defend his property by violence and ignore whatever depravity may be occurring on his neighbor’s out of principle. As I mentioned below, how do you discriminate between an invading force and peaceful immigration?
Get more money and move out.
Another freedom of association conundrum.
Sometimes, we say that you shouldn’t have to move to exercise your freedom of association. Sometimes, we say you have to move to exercise your freedom of association.
Well Dean, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.
I agree. It probably comes down to your narrow focus on political institutions, and my broader focus on the community itself. I tend to agree that politics is downstream of culture, which means that changes to your culture are going to result in changes to your political institutions, so I’m not sure you can draw a line between immigration that changes your culture, and immigration that changes your political institutions.
Take France or Sweden or the other Euro countries currently groaning under mass immigration by barbarians. Their political institutions haven’t changed, but I think many of those “migrants” have a lot of invader/colonizer in them, and the general welfare of the citizens of those countries has been impaired pretty badly by the immigration policy that let the mass immigration happen. On your approach, the mass immigration of barbarians that fundamentally changes your daily life is fine, as long as they don’t try to change political institutions.
Property lines are the only thing that matters. If the guy isn’t on your property, you aren’t being forced to associate with him.
That strikes me as a very, artificially, narrow definition of association. I don’t think the freedom of association originally had anything at all to do with property; it was originally more about the freedom to join civic groups like political parties, clubs, organizations, etc. The property right of allowing or barring people from your property is just that – a property right. I don’t think it really has much to do with association, except incidentally.
Under your definition, a government diktat that any organization must have certain members, or may not have certain members, would not be a violation of freedom of association, whereas to me, that’s a textbook violation. Because it doesn’t have anything to do with who can come on anyone’s property, a Trump EO outlawing the Democrat Party would be perfectly OK?
And you’re right about the abstract principal bit, though the counterargument to that would be that holding and actually living up to abstract ideals is what sets libertarianism apart from the common political parties, who talk a good game and rarely do anything to back it up.
The Party of Principle.
Even if they rarely live up to it.
I live up to my Libertarian principles: i smoke pot and will have butt sex with any (female) mexican who wants to.
There was a time when new immigrants to this country could not receive welfare benefits and they annually had to prove that they were employed. These rules were in effect through, at least, the early 1990’s.
Exactly. In Canada it was the same thing. That’s why the story of immigrants making it are legendary. They went full throttle and North America permitted them the chance to attain prosperity without a social safety net.
I’m not against in principle the idea of setting up a basic safety net for when things don’t go accordingly to plan and you need a break but now it seems the system is a means to an end for those who don’t even bother to try.
It depends on where you stand on the deontological/utilitarian spectrum of libertarianism. I agree with you that from a practical standpoint it’s a horrible idea to let large numbers of immigrants into our existing welfare system. But I don’t accept anyone’s authority to prohibit them from immigrating.
My personal “compromise” as a deontological libertarian is to accept that other people will do the dirty work of trying to limit immigration (the only practical option, because I don’t believe welfare will ever be significantly reduced). I can’t ethically advocate or condone such limitation, but I’m under no obligation to fight against it.
I’m probably immigration but at a rate that allows assimilation and doesn’t overwhelm local structures. I dont know what the rate should be. If we brought 100M people over from pretty much anywhere in a year, we’d be fucked. At 50K a year, I doubt we wouldn’t even notice
Would even notice. Somewhere in between there.
Pro-immigration. Yeah, I jacked it up, but I accidently hit post before having a chance to review.
*Good Edit Fairy stands by*
When I was in college, I took a class in South American history, taught by an American who had lived and studied in Brazil for many years. He told us (in about 1974, mind you) that Brazilians would burn down all the police stations if they were subjected to the sort of day to day oppression and petty tyrannies Americans routinely tolerated. He said they had little or no “political freedom” but they didn’t give a shit about that. Daily life in Brazil was practically anarchy compared to America. Brazilians liked their freedom as a practical matter.
No limit on Brazilian chicks
uuuh, those “chicks” you speak of, are carrying some extra freight “down below”.
Caveat gropor.
HM all about the big bootie
I think he means wedding tackle, not the thicc.
Did you just misgender me?
*narrows gaze, menacingly*
Kinda like how bureaucrats used to be tarred and feathered.
We do need that just to *remind* them who really is in charge.
+1 Aztecs
I have always been of the opinion that opening the immigration flood gates is a decision that can only take place AFTER the welfare state is dismantled. Opening the borders before that is madness.
Yes, I have to agree.
Somehow we need to resuscitate the Land of Opportunity facet of Americanism, and not merely for the benefit of immigrants.
Libertarianism can only exist in a country where Western notions of rule-of-law, individual rights, and liberal institutions pre-exist. its the only kind of state that has ever recognized limits on itself. (and those only barely)
1) I don’t think its the “american” tradition as much as a broader western one, of which the USA is only the best-remaining example.
2) no. because everyone would be far more worried simply about continued perpetuation of any state which successfully protects them from “outsiders”. you liberty means nothing in the face of existential threats to the basic order of things.
The men who led the American Revolution and wrote the Constitution would certainly be considered Libertarian by today’s standards. That “libertarianism” didn’t always hold up when they had to govern, but sure a lot closer than anyone today (including GJay). They were the end-product of Western education and thought.
I don’t disagree. I just don’t think that the classical liberal tradition relies on any unique American contribution, without which it crumbles – the ideas may have been implemented to their fullest here, but the basis on which they rest is something common to western civilization.
It began as far back as 1215. And that piece of paper floated around for centuries falling into someone’s hands from time to time to build on it.
In a way it is sad that they couldn’t find a way to get rid of slavery quickly and peacefully and that stain is forever on them. And sadly in the minds of idiots on modern libertarianism.
Is libertarianism a unique strain of political thought that resides most strongly in American tradition?
What US state is Vienna in?
No, not that Vienna. And not that one either.
So not Vienna, New York?
Illinois. Gots itself a couple of prisons too!
Several of my cousins work there.
Except in Illinois, it’s pronounced, “V-eye-anna”.
As Trustees?
Versailles, KY is my favorite.
Ver – sales.
The area is riddled with it.
Cairo is pronounced Kay-row, and New Madrid is New Mad-rid.
I am suddenly reminded of “Chai-Lie” (Chili), New York.
Pulaski VA is pronounced PEW-laski
Versailles, IL has the same pronunciation.
Same in Missouri
There are 17 in the US.
I think there was libertarian though in a broad view in plenty of places. It took hold in america due to lots of undeveloped land and not to entrenched power structures. As power structures developed it wen away.
In multiple places people tried to escape power and live more or less free. Especialy in marginal area mountains swamps forests etc. Or the high seas.
Stop me when I name someone born in America:
Locke, Rand, Mises, Hayek, Bastiat, Smith, Ricardo.
So what you’re saying is “Libertarianism is Cultural Appropriation”?
Yes.
Very true.
who was born here? Milton?
Spooner.
Milton Spooner? Not familiar with him…
*ducks*
[narrows gaze]
haha
Rothbard and Rose Wilder Lane.
Canada gets Isabel Paterson.
Lew Rockwell is another American, but I can also name Karl Popper as another foreign thought leader.
Lucy, you got some splainin’ to do!
Well, there is Hernando de Soto Polar, who is *American*.
Just trying to be helpful.
There will always be the internal conflict of desiring freedom for oneself while seeking to restrict the freedoms of others (right or wrong). There is nothing uniquely American about that. Given America’s inexorable march towards a more European style of governmental intrusion into every aspect of our lives and the seeming apathy, even hostility, towards reining that in and even pruning it back makes me doubt that the American concept of freedom is what the label on the tin says it is. Perhaps it wasn’t hermetic to begin with, and the contents are now spoiled.
Neither is it a universal. The metaphysical concept of “freedom” to begin with and what it means to people is itself malleable. We do not call murder an exercise freedom, despite the act itself being freely accessible to anyone. Culture absolutely shapes this. Which philosophical concepts we subsume and which are taboo mold us. Apparently even whether we can openly discuss them is itself under threat in this age, and that is perhaps the most dangerous of all.
I’ve often considered what it is that makes a person libertarian, or fellow traveler to libertarians to begin with. The one quality that seemed more within our grasp than other political ideologies is how much weight we give to the unintended consequences of state action. Other ideologies hand-wave those away – one can always “adjust” a bad law or regulation with another later on should those consequences arise. That is facially a make-work program for bureaucrats. The perverse incentive of a bureaucrat to stay employed is always to regulate poorly, never admit wrongdoing, and adjust only when it seems evident that your funding may get cut.
The division between open-borders libertarians and those of us who favor careful vetting has given me pause in that assessment. In my opinion, it’s a huge blind spot for open-borders libertarians. This is perhaps because many of those are anarcho-capitalists as well as a faction of leftist “liberaltarians” thinly clothed in our rhetoric. But AnCap philosophy has glaring holes. National defense against organized adversaries is one. Were it trivial to immigrate freely, one needn’t even construct trojan horses for ideological inversion of our system of government. Anarcho-capitalism necessarily requires higher degrees of violence to maintain order, likely even more than what a state wields, because it returns to a state of tribalism while simultaneously driving internecine conflict as well. What does a group of invaders look like compared to a group of immigrants? One may only figure that out once you’re already surrounded and it’s too late to mount a defense.
It’s fortunate, then, that Anarcho-Capitalism ain’t going to gain sway anytime soon, least of all in America. My relationship with the philosophy is fundamentally the same as La Paz’ in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress – what he called a ‘rational anarchism’, but I prefer ‘pragmatic anarchism’.
The luxury of me sitting here as a green-card holder is that I can quarterback 24/7/52 about how fucked up all the parties are, offering prescriptions for improving society with little expectation of being given the opportunity to enact them. The US, and those nations broadly designated “Western Cultures” could do with a damn sight more “porcupinism”, within a practical minarchist political framework. But as noted upthread, the way to develop this is by culture, not by politics, which of course denies us any expectation of a swift victory.
Sadly, I expect that a sizable chunk of libertarians of the bunker-building and militia-joining variety hope for an alternative option: adherents of the other political philosophies begin campaigns of violence against one another, culminating in a breakdown of trust in government to quell it and a population shell-shocked by the fallout becoming amenable to libertarian ideas.
It’s not as if that idea itself doesn’t have precedent. Jefferson was skeptical about the continued existence of even the government structure he helped create. “Tree of Liberty” libertarians are another breed, and who knows how much longer their adherence to the NAP would hold up when pressured.
That’s always a thought. The founders went to war over some things that seem very small now. I doubt they were talking about the NAP, but at what point is that thrown away for the ‘greater good’ by people? Can you throw out the NAP for a period without losing it? Is it the goal that matters, or is any violation an abandonment of those principles?
And should the NAP be a suicide pact? What indignity will be the one that is too much to suffer?
I look at pacifism as similar to the vaccination debate. Herd immunity can tolerate some, perhaps even a lot, but there is a point at which everything breaks down and disease once cured returns in force and everyone becomes at risk.
I’m not sure the founders EVER talked about the NAP, and after all, it’s a principle, not a law. Individuals abandon principles temporarily, or for narrow conditions all the time, and I don’t expect that given the right circumstances that Libertopia wouldn’t either.
I know it makes me sound like an RAH fanboy, but I’ll channel La Paz again. He was quite prepared to violate the NAP, to execute traitors. The kicker being that he would have to bear the moral responsibility for it himself. I know Zombie Hordes are popular an’ all, but you know there are a bunch of infected humans in a military camp, 5 miles across the border in their country, and you know that when they finally succumb to zombieitis, they’ll be over the border and killing your NAPsters with a quickness.
Do you assemble your air militia for a pre-emptive fuel-air strike? You tell me, and I’ll tell you where you are on the utilitarian/principled axis.
That’s a tough one. I have a much easier time disobeying stupid laws and trying to exercise so-called “Irish democracy” as much as possible than even contemplating the notion of aggressive violence, and I say this as someone who is very sympathetic to the “threeper” ideology. I couldn’t attack someone in cold blood for any reason, even if it were for the glorious libertarian revolution. I can’t aim for the thuggish government agent and not hit the 20-something kid who probably went to my high school and is scared shitless of dying.
Unless one is in favor of truly open borders, then there is going to be some kind of restriction of movement of people across them. By truly open borders, I’m saying that people who favor any kind of vetting don’t count. If you’re going to accept vetting, then you do allow for some level of restriction on who may cross the border. It’s a question of scope at that point.
With the important caveat that I’m not a doctrinaire libertarian and would likely fail some purity tests, I believe that at least some level of a national culture is important, and thus assimilation shouldn’t be a dirty word but rather an essential ingredient in successful immigration. Previous periods of high immigration, the Ellis Island era so prominent in the minds of many people, occurred during a period in which American culture was confident and even arrogant. A strong culture like that promoted assimilation. That largely isn’t the case anymore.
There are places where that culture isn’t strong – they simply have not held the reigns of the media narrative for a while.
… I swear I wrote “that culture is still strong”
Care for an edit?
reins for reigns would be nice
:p
Have to disagree. Assimilation is as strong as ever, if not stronger. Technology accelerates the process.
Anecdotally, my neighborhood, predominantly Mexican immigrants and their progeny, follows the classic pattern- the immigrants have relatively limited English, their kids are perfectly bilingual, and their grandkids don’t speak Spanish. This was similar in the last neighborhood we lived (in Texas), but substitute “Vietnamese” for “Mexican.” Ditto where I lived before that (Solano County, CA), but again Mexican.
Depends on what you consider assimilation. There’s more to culture than language.
What say you? Is libertarianism a unique strain of political thought that resides most strongly in American tradition? Or is it universal – something that transcends across time and culture?
As robc notes, most of the founding influential philosophers that form the core of libertarian thought are dirty foreigners. There’s definitely an undercurrent of individualist thought present cross-culturally, it’s just rare that it actually flourishes (which is probably a better argument than the idea of it being uniquely American).
The other thing I like to point out is that libertarians should look into the Tao Te Ching (it’s short, but some of the translations aren’t great, so look around), because a great deal of it reads like proto-libertarianism (Rothbard called Laozi ‘the first anarchist’ for a reason).
I’m with Riven. Lot’s of people want to be left alone. The hard part is having that feeling towards others. We do pretty well at it, but we make up less than 5% in the US. I assume that number is about the same through the world.
Or 92%, if you’re Hihn.
I still can’t believe that someone like Joss Whedon wrote the lines for this scene, or really…any other scene in Firefly/Serenity
From what I’ve heard a lot of those themes in Firefly is a product of Tim Minear, who apparently leans libertarian.
I gather that you are correct. It still surprises me that he would get behind that sort of dialogue, considering what a shitshow his twitter feed often is.
From wiki:
Tough job.
So much dense dialog and self-reflection, not much need for SFX. I could see the BBC doing it at the time when Blakes Seven was au courant, but not today.
I enjoy that we can take very libertarian messages from people who really think they disagree with us. Music is pretty good at that.
Everyone is a libertarian in some way. We’ve all said something like “old people shouldn’t be allowed to drive!” in a fit of agitation. I don’t think I meant it.
I agree and yet… I find that when I stop and listen to the lyrics of songs that I find “catchy,” sometimes I can’t listen to that song anymore because the message is just lolwut.
Political example–Imagine by John Lennon. Imagine….no property rights for anyone anywhere. Yeah, go fuck yourself.
Non-political example–Jesus Take the Wheel by Carrie Underwood. So, this woman is driving on an icy patch, loses control of of her vehicle, and, instead of steering into the skid or making some kind of attempt to right herself, she throws her hands up in the air…and beseeches Jesus to take the wheel. Like… what? You do realize that Jesus never took Driver’s Ed, right?
Riven: Man, Rush sucks, it’s all about trees talking and the different sides of your brain and shit.
That’s a show I really need to watch more of–especially since that’s almost exactly what I think about Rush.
The early seasons are very good. They had a good ‘end’ at 5 and 6.
Finally, a flaw that makes you a believable character.
Believable, but not sympathetic *frown*
(Not that I find Jesus Take the Wheel “catchy.” Just an example)
And then there’s “Taxman”… Imagine discovering a principle when it actually impacts you!
oh wait, Harrisson wrote taxman, not Lennon.
Can Jesus make a patch so icy even He couldn’t steer out of it?
Oh, God… I don’t know!
I’ll ask the cute little JW who comes to visit every couple weeks on Sunday.
David schtupping the Palestinian chick is one of those sublime moments television just doesn’t usually achieve anymore.
Folk music once contained the spirit. It is not popular anymore, though the message resonates even today.
Consider Metallica’s “Don’t Tread on Me” when they were young compared to their “Fuck Napster, use more state force to stop sharing please” attitude when older.
There’s also A Perfect Circle’s cover of Imagine.
Hilariously, lots of proggies were pretty annoyed by the change of the song’s melody to a minor key. The album itself had a couple of good songs on it (Pet, for example), but it was clearly trying to pin war on Republicans (Bush especially) and get a Democrat elected. I wonder if they’d ever imagined that the Democrat they got would engage in continuous warfare for eight years.
This cover sounds so pessimistic, and it’s all the Republicans’ fault! Well, the pessimism was intentional, and the leftist ideology of Communism has killed more people than Hitler did. Pretending that war is the sole purview of your political enemies is itself disingenuous in the extreme. Pretending that famine caused by the end game of leftist ideology is not worthy of equal disdain is abhorrent.
I wonder if they’d ever imagined that the Democrat they got would engage in continuous warfare for eight years.
Imagine, hell, they didn’t even care. On cue, they rallied behind someone who made even him look like a dove.
Chinese shouldn’t be allowed to drive.
Whedon has said that all his heroes end up libertarian.
It bugs him too.
it must keep him up at night. why can’t your characters be like you? is there maybe something wrong with your ideology when it comes down to it? is it maybe very authoritarian?
Well we all want to be left alone, but our orphans have work to do in the monocle mines. If we were to leave them alone, the world monocle supply dries up. The monocles must flow.
Libertarianism is as Uniquely American as Football. Sure you can find it elsewhere but not much and it’s meaningless. How many places have the equivalent of a 2nd, or even 1st amendment, let alone one so difficult to overturn? The people that hold the Constitution in high regard are not pure goodthinkful libertarians but the Constitution is pretty close to libertarian ideals anyway.
Surveys show immigrants generally prefer big government over the natives. That’s just the reality. That’s not very surprising since if the countries elsewhere were stocked with small government ideologues they wouldn’t look the way they do.
Open borders has a foreseeable consequence, so I don’t see any issue making a judgement about what it’s proponents intentions are.
Ooh, red rag to a bull there. The Constitution today has some questionable positions from a libertarian standpoint, and the current interpretations of it, which is how we are governed are far from libertarian. Indeed, there’s no guarantee that the interpretations of the future will be any more libertarian.
Then there’s the situation where – under our current legal framework, the constitution is amended and the new constitution is decidedly unlibertarian. This fetishism for the source materials of our legal system is something I used to indulge in, but discarded with time. The fact that it’s currently aligned pretty closely with contemporary US-flavored libertarianism is a happy coincidence and little more.
Regarding the political ideology of recent immigrants, yeah, that’s a problem regardless, but the issue remains – in a future-state, libertarian USA, to what degree can the US absorb immigrants whose political ideals are destructive to those of the established polity?
I think libertarianism is a direct descendent of the same political thought that derived the constitution and not a separate coincidence.
I also find it interesting that the most ‘fairly libertarian but doesn’t know it’ people I’ve met come from Angola, Cameroon, and Nigeria. And a lot of that has to do with a general distrust of governments and police as a whole, due to what they’re used to.
Was the omission of Somalia deliberate?
They haven’t got here yet. Lack of ROADZ, dontchaknow.
American Exceptionalism is our unique ability to absorb people from other cultures, appropriate what works from what they bring, and leave behind what doesn’t.
I believe you are describing the end result of assimilating immigrants. I have no problem with immigrants who become Americans; I think the debate is probably what it really takes to be an American. American exceptionalism something else. I think its more a culture of limited government and personal freedom and responsibility.
However, we don’t even live in a culture that places much of a priority on assimilation. Its all “multi-culturalism” now. If we assimilate to a culture of limited government and personal freedom and responsibility, I’m good with pretty high levels of immigration; if we don’t, I’m not.
At this point, we aren’t even promoting a culture of limited government and personal freedom and responsibility to native-born Americans, at least not very well. Bringing in millions more from cultures that don’t value these things, and won’t be expected to value them, is indeed slow-motion suicide for the America that is supposed to be exceptional because it values, protects, and promotes limited government and personal freedom and responsibility.
I, for one, don’t want to live in some gray schmeer of global cultures and values. Frankly, most of them suck. And if immigration promotes some multi-culti stew of unassimilated backwards enclaves, I want no part of it. If it promotes communities with large numbers of successful Americans (native born or assimilated, I care not), I’m fer it. Right now, I think we’re getting both, and I’m pretty sure they sort by the country of origin of the immigrants.
I want to live in something resembling the mythical exceptional America. Immigration policy should be driven by one overriding purpose: Will this immigration promote the general welfare of American citizens, in ye olde Constitutional sense of the term “general welfare”. If it does, bring it on. If not, shut it down. Immigration policy should be set for the benefit of American citizens; the benefits to immigrants are incidental, in my opinion.
But is their distrust of government in general, or just not the right top men yet?
The consensus tends to be “the government’s corrupt as hell man” and if they’re not openly corrupt, they’re just hiding it well. Some them found it really weird that you can’t just bribe cops to get them to leave you alone.
Oh you can if the stakes are big enough. Just not the minor corruption in most countries. The major one is alive and well.
Is libertarianism a unique strain of political thought that resides most strongly in American tradition? Or is it universal – something that transcends across time and culture?
Well, the desire to be left alone to do what you want is almost certainly not unique to the American (and Anglo-Saxon before it) tradition. The willingness to pay the price of letting that other fellow alone to secure that right is a little more rare. That said, I think what we’re talking about is a learned cultural trait.
As others have noted, America has been really, really good at instilling its civic religion on immigrants. With every wave of immigrants, there’s been notable skepticism that, well, “these people are different”. Yet, for some reason, Jewish immigrants were able to give us the likes of Friedman or Rothbard and Italian immigrants were able to give us the likes of Napolitano. Meanwhile, I’ve little doubt that you can find no shortage of Mayflower descendants who are statist fucks.
The central question is can immigrants be assimilated into America’s civic religion more quickly than they can form collectives hostile to it. Historically, the answer to that question had to be an unqualified “yes”. Today there are at least a couple of issues that make one a little less sanguine. For one thing, our cultural leaders today don’t themselves buy into the the American creed. I’m not sure how realistic it is to expect immigrants to buy into the American libertarian tradition when the voice of America that they’re presented with is Lena Dunham and Seth Rogen. The other, related, cloud on that horizon is that, in a lot of ways, our society has become less libertarian, particularly on economics, than it was even twenty years ago. New immigrants previously had the example of free enterprise in action right in front of them to see why anything else sucked in comparison. Now, they have libertarians telling them that it would be much better if the market were unleashed.
Good comments, everyone. This post would have been even better if I wasn’t up to my eyeballs in work-work. So thanks for taking my ball and running with it.
+1 Archive-worthy thread.
Everyone is so thrilled to be able to chat away without the trolls.
My answer:
Old dog, new tricks = possible, not probable.
If there’s a good way to get libertarian-friendly voters by way of immigration, great. I don’t know of any way to do this, which means the country itself has to be good at teaching libertarian values. The USA has not been good at this for a long while. 18th-century immigration was fantastic for the country. 19th-century immigration was a mixed bag. 20th-century immigration, outside of immigration from communist countries, has been a shitshow. We either get poorer immigrants who have no classically liberal instincts per se, or productive and law-abiding immigrants who nonetheless don’t particularly appreciate classically liberal norms.
If you are having a hard time instilling libertarian/classically liberal elements into the socio-political scene as is, it is unlikely that you’ll do better by ushering populations less disposed to the philosophy into positions where they and their children have political power. This is to say nothing of the current situation, where the average voter is powerless and pointless to the discussion, and mass immigration is favored by the powers-that-be as a way to get what they want and divide and distract voters.
In order for a country to concentrate libertarians without resorting to an ideological test, the availability of a frontier is a necessary precondition.