I have previously described how being cheerful, helpful and non-intrusive had help possibly save me from getting blowed up real good. Well, the other side of the Afghan War (2001-present version) knows a thing or two about sowing doubt and mistrust. And they used just such a tactic against us in the area I was responsible for.
Some of the 3/116th INF at Qarabaghi-Robat
I spent a fair amount of time accompanying the 3/116th INF’s (VA ARNG) patrols in the area around Bagram, AF. Almost every time, the people were a mix of curious, glad, interested or slightly wary when they saw us. However, one of the times I was given quite a fright came when I went with a patrol to the village of Qarabaghi-Robat.
Our patrol had a local policeman along with us – and his behavior told me something was wrong from the get go. Normally, we would come to a village and the inevitable crowd would gather. We would then ask to see the village elder(s) and let them show us around, talk about what was going on in the area, etc. This time was different. Our policeman started suggesting that we wait outside the village, and he would go find the elder and bring him to us. When we told him that we had to go into the village, he became very agitated. He left to find someone while we waited where you see in the picture below.
Crowd gathering at Qarabaghi Robat
The people that did gather around while we waited for the elder were not acting normal either – sullen, not talkative (a non-talkative Afghan from the Bagram area was truly alarming) and they made my interpreter nervous. The interpreter (a fellow from Kabul) told me that the people were not happy we were there – and they were making rather rude and crude remarks about us, and him as well.
Eventually the policeman returned and told us no elder or other representative of the village was around, and we should wait for them outside the village. Before I could think of something suitably sarcastic to say, the NCO leading the patrol said, “You tell him we are going to look around, and he can wait somewhere else if he wants,” to our interpreter. The policeman then did leave, much to my surprise. Also, the crowd had grown in size and surliness.
The NCO and I looked at each other, shrugged, and moved out. A group of men of the village followed us as we walked through the center of the village and turned down an alley. We had obviously gone someplace nobody wanted us to go by the villager’s reaction. They were getting louder, and our interpreter mentioned they were starting to make threats.
When we got to the end of the alley, one of the soldiers told me he had walked over a hollow sounding patch of ground – and that when his platoon had been in the South of Afghanistan (near the Pakistan border), this was how many weapons caches were hidden. We stopped to check the spot out, borrowing a shovel from the property owner (he looked like he had just sucked an entire lemon). The covered over pit was full of garbage, and we figured it wasn’t a weapons cache – but as we were giving the shovel back, the interpreter told us that “these people are crazy”. I asked him why, he said that they were telling him how they were going to kill him, and then all of us. I thought about it, and drew inspiration from that legendary hero – King Arthur, of Monty Python and the Holy Grail – RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!
I quietly mentioned to the NCO what was being said, and we agreed it was time to leave Qarabaghi-Robat.
As we were leaving, the village elder suddenly appeared. He confined his conversation to asking for supplies and help with the local school. I was upset at first, but then had to admire the man. Here were his people threatening to kill us, and he wanted school supplies…
We went back to Bagram AF and reported everything. Later, I had the leader of the area around that village, one Haji Sultan Qand (aka “Commander Qand”) apologize on behalf of the people and promise to give them a swift kick up the backside. He said that someone had told the village that the Americans were coming to look through your houses (a particularly touchy subject with the Afghans – you would bring dishonor to them, see their women, etc.) and do all sorts of bad things. The enemy had very cleverly engaged in disinformation. If we had not kept our cool, or someone had as much as thrown a rock – the effort would have probably yielded great results for the enemy. Forget LT Calley and My Lai, it would have been MAJ Swiss and Qarabaghi Robat.
So the lesson for those that would engage in counterinsurgency (or policing, hint hint), you must be prepared to sometimes just stop looking around and leave people alone. Then find out what is going on, if you do need to go back for a good reason (we did not). For police, I think, the hassling, the stop and frisk, and searches of homes that more resemble a ransacking would have a similar bad effect. The people of the community you are policing would then be confirmed in their belief you don’t care, you are just there to push them around. They will be sullen, uncooperative, or hostile.
Better to just come back if everyone is riled up at you – and there is no threat to life or property. I wasn’t about to shoot up a village to inspect a garbage pit, and the police should not trash homes or violate people’s bodily integrity just trying to find their own garbage dump.
I wasn’t about to shoot up a village to inspect a garbage pit, and the police should not trash homes or violate people’s bodily integrity just trying to find their own garbage dump.
Sad that actual soldiers in a combat zone show greater restraint and are subject to stricter rules of engagement than cops patrolling American streets.
I can say this until I’m blue in the face to conservatives, and it never sticks. There’s always excuses made. It’s different, they say. Yea – the people you’re dealing with over there are more likely to be hostiles. I’d like to think that over time that breeds a certain level of restraint even in the dumbest soldier.
Much much more restraint. Outside of an active combat zone. shooting people “because you feel threatened” is not an excuse and will get you charged with murder or manslaughter.
I’m guessing part of the reason is that officers up the chain of command would also suffer consequences if the men in their charge needlessly escalate a situation.
Why do you hate our heroes in blue?
I was not a grunt myself but a friend of mine from boot camp was. He said that they hated being around reservists because a lot of them were cops, and they invariably were trigger happy as hell and almost always ended up escalating situations.
“Trigger happy and escalating situations” is SOP for cops.
Which is the opposite of my experience in the IL ARNG. The Active Army guys kicked in doors and acted quite twitchy (except for the 25th ID guys) while the Guard was chill and got along great with the locals almost every time. Of course, most of our cops in the Guard seemed to be State Troopers – handing out speeding tickets and doing investigations doesn’t get as many “STOP RESISTING” types as say, the CPD.
Interesting point. Also, like I said, while he was out ducking bullets and IEDs in Ramadi, I was chilling in the radar van at Al-Asad, so all I know is what he told me.
Might be that Marine reservists feel like they have more to prove? I dunno.
Ah, Marine Reserve….that is a different breed of cat. Yeah, had some …. interesting times with a couple of different Marine Reserve BNs. 3/6 and 2/8(?). One of the two was a bit…quick on the non lethal force (basically paintball guns). Used to keep the regular ammo and put Skittles in them – “Taste the rainbow, mother f$%&er!”. Our TF CSM caught them recharging the air cylinders without any ammo expenditure. Did some quiet investigating, and then they popped a 12 yoa kid with a slingshot right in the ribs, twice. I thought the town by our West gate was going to riot. The Marine who popped him was in a guard tower that was supposed to be able to take a 7.62 round. His Captain said “he felt threatened” and I laughed at him. Since I was a Major, he couldn’t do much more than stomp out in a huff.
3/6 is an active-duty battalion down at Lejeune. Rserve regiments are in the 20s – 23rd Marines, 25th Marines, something like that.
Anyway….yeah, I know from personal experience that Marine groundpounders tend to be hyper-aggressive meatheads, and even THOSE guys thought the cop reservists were hotheads.
Americans rarely kill cops. I’m not convinced that these two situations are quite that comparable.
There isn’t usually a language barrier. The culture is, more often than not, similar enough to be able to read people. Cops also usually have a lot more info on the people they police, whether that’s data collected from previous encounters and shared to others or just personal experience.
Also, cops are kind of trapped between a rock and a hard place here. They usually can’t just “leave.” If something terrible is going on (e.g. human trafficking) and the police leave and it’s later discovered that they could have stopped something awful, then the public’s going to vilify them for cowardice and dereliction. If they don’t leave and the public gets violent even though nothing untoward is happening, they’ll probably still be blamed.
I don’t know what the correct answer is here, and I’m certainly no police apologist. There’s just too much shit they get away with.
When I read the accounts of bad police encounters, there is usually no point where the cops deescalate, take a breath and consider a different approach. They just seem to bull full-steam ahead with force, which tells me it’s how they were trained. When they aren’t punished, that confirms it.
It’s actually worse than that. When the police are completely justified in bulldozing forward is usually the exact time they fail to do so. The police waited outside for three hours before attempting to stop the pulse nightclub shooter. I guess when it’s a random drunk alone in his house they’re a lot braver than when they might actually take a bullet to save someone.
Yep – It’s as if they are trained to react in the complete opposite way the Marines trained me to act – smash armed resistance brutally, be very cautious around unarmed civilians and surrendering enemy troops. To the point of letting them run away if they are not obviously armed.
“To the point of letting them run away”
Oh boy…there is another article I am going to have to write.
The police waited outside for three hours before attempting to stop the pulse nightclub shooter.
They actually withdrew from the building, and stood around listening to people bleed out on their cell phones. Beyond disgusting.
Make no mistake: for some/many cops, there is no pile of “civilian” corpses too high to climb on their way home safe.
It’s interesting to compare this comment to your other one just below. It’s displaying the dichotomy I mentioned.
The whole point of my comment was about comparing a military operation in a foreign land where practically everything about the indigenous people are different from a combat squad. I think we can all agree that there are some very different factors in play between the two, and making it seem like apples-to-apples is unconvincing.
The failure of the police to do anything about the violent protesters at Berkeley is another obvious example. They stood around inside a building looking down at the crowd instead of dispersing them when they started burning shit and beating people unconscious.
But there are also times when they persevere when everything seems wrong about people’s behavior, and given the more similar cultural backgrounds it is reasonable to say that they’re in a better position to read behavior from other Americans and act on that.
People obviously don’t want a no-knock invasion of their own home at 4 AM. They don’t want their baby flash-banged in the crib. They don’t want their dogs shot to death for no reason other than approaching in a friendly manner. They don’t want to see Waco happen again.
People do want real criminals arrested. If this were a tale about a police raid in Chicago and people were acting strangely, covering for an actual cache of weapons being kept by gang members, it would be a rather different situation to suggest that the cops should “just leave.” Americans don’t force women to stay indoors and consider it to be a religious taboo to let another man see them. We don’t bury our garbage in the middle of our streets – we have waste collection systems for that. We don’t usually need an interpreter to help us understand both the language and body language/behavior of those we come in contact with. We know more about them, including what to expect, because we have a common culture, more or less.
It is obvious that cops don’t always get it right or always get it wrong. There is definitely plenty of reason to criticize the militarization of police forces. I just am not convinced that the situations police face are all that comparable to the one portrayed here by Swiss, and when circumstances are different then tactics often have to be as well.
I am more trying to convey a general principle. Hassling people in front of their peers, just because ends up shaming them (“dissed” still a grave offense?). They will react similarly to a Central Asian if you barge into his house. Anger, seek to regain face, etc.
Trashing a house when you do NOT find the drugzz stacked to the ceiling, as your “CI” said….don’t break shit, hurt people and hope you find the old, burnt remains of a roach and justify the whole thing that way.
I guess I am just saying that de-escalation and proportionality is better than what is often done in policing, and is an absolute necessity in counter-insurgency.
There are times you do have to go balls to the wall and people have to have deadly force used against them. I have been there… and I also have had to be calmed down (future article) or I would have started a mini Highway of Death 2 (2008 version).
People react better when you are not rubbing their nose in it for little to no actual return.
I think there are a lot of differences between what Swissie was up to and what our cops are up to. What strikes me is that those differences lead to opposite results than what you would expect. Rather than using their cultural familiarity to de-escalate, etc. cops go the opposite way.
I think the dichotomy between “dominate and control” and “do nothing” can be easily explained by the level of risk to the cops. The “do-nothing” cops are likely “dominate and control” cops as long as its perfectly safe to dominate and control. But when there is apparent risk, allofasudden then its all “lets not rush into this”, even when they know, for a fact that it will cost “civilan” lives because they are listening to them die while the cops dither.
For the protestors, well, that’s a different kind of risk – career risk. Also not one cops are willing to take in order to discharge their apparently purely nominal duties.
People obviously don’t want a no-knock invasion of their own home at 4 AM. They don’t want their baby flash-banged in the crib. They don’t want their dogs shot to death for no reason other than approaching in a friendly manner. They don’t want to see Waco happen again.
I don’t think it’s that obvious. I mean, you’re right, if it happened to them personally, sure. But it’s happening all around them and even many of the people who react negatively at first will reconsider the second the police or an apologist makes even a quarter-assed justification for the incident.
Sadly, a good majority of people would have to experience this stuff personally for anything to change.
Yep, I can get behind that to some degree.
Obviously, ending the war on drugs will solve a lot of that on its own. They’ll go back to being sold in legitimate businesses and manufactured by legitimate pharmaceuticals. The justification for bigger police forces just won’t be there, and it’s my belief that a lot of those problems with dangerous policing comes from the bloated size to combat drugs. There are only so many people who are fit to be cops, and I think we’ve scraped the bottom of the barrel to employ as many as we can, which makes forces reluctant to give up even bad cops because they’re a large investment.
Scaling back the military is another priority. The reason a lot of these departments are getting military grade equipment is because the military sheds so much of it when it gets new stuff, which it constantly does. Lest we forget, the technology developed for military use eventually ends up in civilian hands.
Finally, ending public sector unions altogether. If a bad cop can’t get fired, no amount of comparisons like this will ever get through to them. It’s about the same as telling a murderer “don’t murder.”
Doing these things will make it much easier for the civilian leadership of local government to get policing back under control. There are many people who are soldiers who would also make good cops – they have the right mindset. Shrinking the military, causing lots of them to become unemployed, and glutting the market with people worth hiring makes it easier to get rid of bad cops because there are good people who can replace them. Ending the drug war would cause police departments to shed officers too, and of course the worst ones will be who the public demands go first.
I think there’s more value to changing the nature of the conflict at the root of the matter than hacking at the branches that are the consequences.
I saw the original “highway of Death” shortly after the ceasefire. I felt zero sympathy for the dead. The massive traffic jam was caused by Iraqis fleeing with all the stolen loot they could tie to their vehicles – and lots of stolen cars that got stuck in the desert when the road got jammed.
I felt for the people who had their stuff stolen.
Drake, my gunny from Okinawa was a corporal during Desert Storm, and since they had little to do after the ceasefire, they were awarded the plum job of cleaning up the Highway of Death. He said that burned flesh smell is something you simply couldn’t forget no matter how much you wanted to. He also had a photo album that would make our little pogue stomachs churn.
Following the Columbine precedent
I think a big part of the problem is in a similar vein to what we were discussing the other day about rape allegations. When there is an actual rape, the media ignores it, but when there is a sensational rape story, the media eats it up like popcorn, even after it’s determined to be complete horseshit. The same is true about police shootings. If there is a police shooting, it gets plastered all over the place, and when it is determined that the shooting was justified they turn around and show it as proof of a corrupt system. When some random white guy in flyover gets SWATed and killed in his own home because of a bogus anonymous tip or ‘paid informant’, it barely makes it past the local news.
That is why I mentioned, if it is life and property at risk – maybe you need to be more insistent. The one that haunts me is the time that one of Jeffrey Dahmer’s victims got away, and the cops…well, see for yourself.
There’s also this one where LAPD shot and killed the hostage that called them for help.
They remind me of the Vogons near the end of The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy movie where they all start firing their weapons randomly because they heard the word “fire”.
See “Death Blossom” here.
Interesting. In the game ‘overwatch’ there is a character whose ultimate move is called ‘death blossom’ where he shoots in all directions wiping out everyone around him.
Like the NYC cops shooting at a suspect and hitting 9 bystanders.
hence the nickname for reaper being “school shooter”
I thought that’s cause he’s a trenchcoat wearing edgelord.
yeah, the angsty teen edgelordery doesn’t help
I went to the link to make sure the included the origin of that name.
+ a very large number indeed. Thanks for reminding me of that, Neph!
And the Cheshire murders. By all accounts, the family was alive while police watched the perps set fire to the place. The father was outside begging for help while the cops hid behind trees. There is some speculation that the rapes even took place while the cops were camped out.
Jebus Swiss that is fucked up. I had forgotten completely about that.
They usually can’t just “leave.”
Actually, yes, they can. They just don’t want to. Its their culture to never, ever back down, no matter how bad the outcome is likely to be. Their mission is no longer to keep the peace, its to dominate and control. Get them back to being peacekeepers, and things might change.
Unfortunately, I see virtually no discussion by People Who Matter that our cop culture maybe needs to change.
Thank you. You said it so I didn’t have to.
A lot of cops are ex military. I wonder if there are numbers on how often ex military officers are out of line compared to non military.
“Commander Qand”
Did his wife’s name begin with an A? If so you could have invited them over for dinner and tell your CO you were having a Qand A session.
*narrows gaze….and slow claps at the same time*
Stupid question of the day. Does the Afghan government have any circuit judges similar to what the US had back in the day? Or would the security issues not only for the judges but for anyone who utilized them be too insurmountable.
Afghani justice is complicated. Here is a basic primer.
I met all of one Afghan judge – he seemed to be fairly limited in what he could do.
If I ever go into some depth about the Iraqi failure to have much of a functioning state, I will have to recount my meeting with one of Saddam’s military “hanging judges” who was being recycled.
I’d be curious on that. My own hunch is simple enough. Government is a product of culture. And the tactics employed by Saddam were culturally acceptable to Iraqis with the major issue being that certain ethnic groups would simply prefer is they were employed on those other guys over there. The few Iraqis I could interact with seemed to talk wistfully about the law and order of the Saddam years, though it was a limited sample size.
Were they Shia or Sunni?
Great lesson to learn. I look forward to your next post sir.
One of these times I will have to recount something that didn’t make my sphincter slam hard so shut people though a bell was being rung.
What do they say about war, again? Long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of terror.
That applies to sailing and flying as well
And reading SugarFree
That seems more long periods of bewilderment, punctuated by moments of terror and/or vomiting.
I’m sure there were some epic pranks…that would be a good read I’m sure.
Always a delightful read, Swiss.
So the lesson for those that would engage in counterinsurgency (or policing, hint hint), you must be prepared to sometimes just stop looking around and leave people alone
That’ll never work.
Snark aside, leaving people alone when they pose no threat to you doesn’t seem like it should be “out of the box thinking” but I guess that’s why I’ve never wanted to be an enforcer.
I think when you look at the militaries that had the most successful pacifying different areas, it tended to be those that took a hands off approach and just let the locals do their thing while taking some cut off the top. It perhaps sound pretty basic, but it’s counterintuitive to the current class of politicians running the Western world who believe in an active state that provides services to people. In the West, people don’t really have a clear picture of what government is at its root (force), and why states are formed and considered essential (to maintain order). Libertarians tend to understand the first part fully, but the second only to a degree or sometimes. The primary justification for the existence of government has pretty much always been to provide protection, and most of the time, that protection was from outside threats with maintaining local law and order being, well, local unless things spiraled out of control.
So, basically, I’m blaming progressivism. Its core tenants are embodied into our society at this point on both the left and the right. Though, you could actually argue that classical liberalism has a part, as well.
An example of the above the many people may find ironic – the Arabs/Muslims succeeded in conquest largely by doing the above, despite what people may think today. Regardless of whether they viewed themselves as fighting a Jihad, they made little direct effort to convert others. In Iran and further East in particular (Afghanistan), they basically just set up outposts and taxed the locals while keeping to themselves. It was, in fact, in their best interests *not* to convert others as it would decrease the tax they could collect. Probably unwittingly, they created a strong(er) incentive over time for people to convert that the Arabs couldn’t stop.
It’s also interesting to look at how the concept of Jihad changes over time and place. So guys who live on the frontiers of Islam and who are looking for more tax cattel typically had a more aggressive form of Jihad compared to those in the interior of the Islamic world who didn’t really benefit from it.
Speaking of counterinsurgencies – I have no idea if this is serious or a parody.
Quinn’s Call to Action for the Men of Antifa
It’s real. And if she called me for some action I would. Yes I know never stick it in crazy but I have guns for just such an occasion.
She is cute. Maybe the antifa thing is the world’s biggest shit test.
is that Zoe Quinn you’re talking about, dude?
Im talking about the chick in the video… I don’t know her name, nor do I need to… plausible deniability and all that.
Even with that facial hair?
*runs away*
The line is too blurred at this stage to tell the difference between parody and reality. Just get some popcorn and watch.
Did you actually watch the whole thing?
Yes. I still have no idea if the whole thing is real, the second half if fake, or what. They have more videos out there – all equally borderline parody / peak-derp.
“Borderline“?
“we uh, defend people of color and the uhhhhhhhhhhhh LGBT…………….I……A……. Q….. uh. I….. I….. A.”
I mean even the camera angle is sort of a giveaway.
and anyone else who is a margin person
Jesus.
we smash fash
Kay.
Excellent stuff, Swiss. Always love your pieces.
Its their culture to never, ever back down, no matter how bad the outcome is likely to be. Their mission is no longer to keep the peace, its to dominate and control.
Exactly. It’s all about dominance and submission, which is why I refer to them as baboons with guns.
What difference does it make? We’re all gonna die, anyway.
Only 10 weeks into his presidency, and at great risk to future generations, Donald Trump has ordered the demolition of most of President Barack Obama’s policies to combat climate change by reducing emissions from fossil fuels.
The assault began with Mr. Trump’s pledge in Detroit to roll back fuel efficiency standards for cars and trucks, continued with a stingy budget plan that would end funding for climate-related scientific programs and reached an unhappy apex Tuesday with an executive order that, among things, would rescind the centerpiece of Mr. Obama’s clean power strategy, a rule that would shut down hundreds of old coal-fired power plants and freeze the construction of new ones.
Soon the Earth will be drowning and choking and boiling and freezing, all at the same time.
The leftist argument always always ALWAYS strips down to ‘blood in the streets’. It is literally the only card in their deck, dressed up in as many fancy coats as they need in order to obfuscate.
This line surprised me. Has anyone on the left ever been this honest about how devastating Obama’s coal policy would be?
you must be prepared to sometimes just stop looking around and leave people alone
And have a god show weakness in front of mundanes?
“We will come back and talk…when everyone has calmed down a bit.” “If any of you think better of this – we can talk at the Area 5 stationhouse. Ask the Desk Sargent. Stay safe everyone”
*ambles out of area, back to squad car*
A case that should have ended like that was the Harvard Professor vs the the Cambridge Cop that ended up in the Beer Summit.
Dickhead prof kept yelling at the cop about being a racist for checking out the report of a black man looking like he was house breaking (he’d left his key inside). The cop couldn’t do anything about the insults as long as they were inside the prof’s house. Instead of just saying “Sorry you feel this way Sir, if you want to pursue this are welcome to talk to my supervisor. Meantime, I’ll be on my way. Good Day.” He invited the prof outside where he know there were people walking about and when the prof continued his rant. “You’re under arrest for disturbing the peace.” Totally a bullshit “how dare you question my Authority!” move.
Great story. Love these. It must make your blood boil whenever you hear stories of cops shitting their pants killing dogs and non-threatening people.
Great stuff, Swiss.
So good, in fact, that I’ll overlook the whole Blackhawks thing.
Why you… 7 POINT LEAD, TUNDRA! (…of course, f history is any guide, that makes the Blackhawks a good chance to get waxed in Round 1 or 2).
Possibly, but hockey is weird like that. I love the disciplined game they play – having Towes at 100% is going to make a big difference.
My Wild have been shitting the bed lately. No one wants to say it, but our formerly bulletproof goalie is looking pretty bad.
3/116th has a great tradition behind it, First at Omaha Beach and being descended from the Stonewall Brigade. For years they had their own patch known informally as “Stonie on a Pony” Back when I was just commissioned they had had to remove it for the 29th ID patch and for years they were pissed about that. Swiss, did they paint their T-walls with the Division or BDE patch?
The story of the National Guard units with Confederate service is fascinating. In every other country on Earth they would never be able to mention that history. When the Legions were destroyed in 9ce at the Varusschlact they were never reformed. No unit of the German army has a history pre-dating 1949. etc etc. In the US? As the southern militia units were slowly reformed they were allowed to keep their Civil War (and earlier) lineages and histories. As the state militias got reorganized as National Guard regiments all units with earlier histories kept them. (The 20th Maine of Gettysburg fame is still in the Maine Guard though not as infantry.) In fact if they Army adopted two versions of Civil War battle streamers to accommodate these histories. Like I said, no other nation would have done that.