10″The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one’s time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.” – H. L. Mencken
Let’s start with a couple of quick, short, non-scholarly definitions. What is free speech? I would say the right to express whatever you goddamn feel like. Wait a damn minute! “Obscene speech is not free speech!” (it like totally is), “hate speech is not free speech!” (I beg to differ) or “you can’t yell “fire!” in a crowded theater!” (I tried it once, it seems I could).
Is hate speech really free speech? Mea culpa, as the ancient Dacians used to say. There is, in fact, no such thing as hate speech, as there is no possible objective definition of it. There is no such thing as obscene speech, intolerant speech, and offensive speech. All these things are in the ear of the behearer (yes, I know it’s not a word, it be jokes). There is, in fact, such a thing as fire.
To support speech which is free is specifically about the one you personally find offensive and disagreeable. It’s no great feat, no feat at all, to graciously allow speech you agree with. The whole goddamn point is to defend the “bad speech”. And I do not mean “a bit rude, but makes a good point”. I mean gratuitously stupid and offensive speech, the one that is nowhere near a good point, which is offensive just to be offensive, just to push boundaries, contradictory and half-baked, vile and inflammatory. This is the litmus test of free speech. Respecting speech when you just can’t even.
Here is a good place to state that I am one of the good guys, an ally (Or is it axis? I get confused) and I do not agree with any speech anyone might find offensive, although I think they have the right to say it, and please buy me cocktails – nothing too sweet and girly, mind, an old fashioned works, or maybe a Sazerac. I had a decent cocktail once with rye whiskey, bitters and something called Sirop de Picon, but this is all besides the point.
The main issue of free speech is not of theaters, but of government. Whether private individuals can set rules in their private sphere – I can kick you out of my home if I don’t like what you say – government should not attempt to ban speech in the public sphere. This is understood by some, not by others.
But! There is often a but, and this one is sort of thicc. The fact you can avoid speech you don’t like, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to do so. It is good to strive towards a society where the government respects freedom and expression by law and private parties respect it by custom. Yes, twitter/youtube/facebook can and often do police speech on their platforms, as is their right. But maybe, just maybe, it is a bad idea to do so. And while it is not directly a right infringement, they can be criticized for this.
I Had the Right to Remain Silent…But I Didn’t Have the Ability” – Ron White
Private actors, people and companies, can deny a “platform” to speech they don’t like, but I believe people should have the default view of: let’s hear the asshole out. If you are confident in your opinion, you can listen to another one, no matter how shitty. One grows by being exposed to as many ideas as possible, as opposed to avoiding anything different, while screaming to lung capacity about how stupid or ignorant or hateful others are. I always found it quite amazing how certain some are of the superiority of their views, when they refuse to even attempt to understand others. It is like the view you developed in high school, probably the very first one you came across, was perfect and there is no need for further inquiry.
All that being said, it is every snowflake’s right to insulate xerself in whatever echo chamber xir chooses. I think it is stupid, but you do you and like whatever. Fine, but–ehm–how about speech that is violence and promotes actual harm? I feel threatened! That tweet is literally violence! Check mate, free speechers!
I do not have much shit to give in general, but sometimes I worry about our society and the people in it. How, well… soft everyone is becoming, how delicate, how fragile, how lacking in introspection and self-awareness some people are. Like or loath Nassim Taleb, there is something to be said of antifragility. Or resilience.
In the new intersectional reality, it has become a mark of social status to claim victimhood. Everyone wants as many oppression brownie points as possible. I do not understand this and do not think it is healthy. Time was, it was a matter of pride to overcome adversity. You had it real tough and you made, conquered every obstacle. Now it seems to be the opposite. This is not the way forward. Victim status was something to be avoided and conquered, not celebrated, because the individual gains most from overcoming adversity, not whining about it.
The most annoying thing is that for a good number of these people there is no adversity. They try so hard to claim oppression – the very thing one should overcome – when none exists. But what are the optics of that? How does it help women, for example, when some feminist screams hysterically about everything? Makes ’em look real rational, doesn’t it? Claiming you can’t handle even mildly offensive speech. I get they are professional activists and this is their bread and butter – screaming hysterically and grievance mongering – and most likely they don’t give a shit beyond themselves, but do they think it is a good look?
How weak are you, how pathetic, if I may be a little harsh, to claim online speech is literally violence and caused you real harm? And this is not about credible threats. It rarely is. How incapable of self-control are we if hearing an opinion – no matter how bad it may be – makes us feel threatened, fearing for our safety? Or causes a breakdown? Or mental illness, PTSD, whatever. Rotting in a trench and hearing bad things are basically the same.
Look a bit at human history. I’ll wait. People have gone through some bad shit. War, famine, disease, genocides, gulags, torture and suffering we cannot fathom. And we get all up in arms about tweets? Seriously? Of course, each society has its problems and things to improve. I am not saying that because we have it better than 100 years ago, we should never complain or not try to improve things. Constant improvement is a goal. But just a wee bit of perspective here and there does not hurt. And you hurt no one as much as yourself by being a snowflake.
Safety used to mean you are not in imminent danger of bodily harm. Now it somehow means not hearing what you don’t want to hear. How did society get to that point? How the hell can opinions trigger PTSD in people with no imaginable reason to have PTSD? And if they do have it, we need to see how in the modern world people are so mollycoddled as to get PTSD for no apparent reason.
Now, I perfectly realize all this shit is massively over-represented over the interwebs and it is not a representation of general society. Yet. But it is growing and should be nipped in the bud. And sadly, it is growing more than usual in schools.
Offense is purely subjective, and it is taken meaninglessly in most contexts. Being offended – and this goes for most people – is bullshit 99% of the damn time, and it leads to a lot of unnecessary drama. Just shake it off, as the philosophers say. And this comes from someone who is very far from the stereotypical tough guy. Seriously. Some asshole said this and that? Fuck him, who cares?
PeopleAssholes like to regularly use the ‘fire in a theatre’ argument as a canard for gun control. ‘You can’t shout fire in a theatre so why should you carry a gun there?!’ Okay, but the equivalent to prohibiting me from carrying a gun in public would be to physically tape my mouth shut when I leave my house out of fear I may shout ‘fire’ at inappropriate moments.The classics often hold through time
https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-are-enough/
So the “Fire in a theater” argument was used to jail a socialist. Perfect.
Thomas Healey demonstrated how Holmes changed his mind after his Schenck opinion. Basically, though he wasn’t a prog, he was worried about the attempt of some universities to fire his proggie buddies for their opinions. So Holmes switched to a pro-free-expression position while taking the attitude that he totally hadn’t changed his views.
Brandenburg v. Ohio effectively rendered Holmes’ bullshit Schenk opinion moot anyway. Ken White has hammered away on that one for years and yet fools keep babbling about crowded theaters.
The purpose of this is to justify using actual violence to stop speech.
Yes.
Whatever happened to “Sticks and stones….”
Oh, they’ll be happy to throw those at you.
or bike locks.
Well, it also stems from the Total War mentality of postmodernists. Since they view the world as a zero-sum class conflict, any gain for the oppressor must come at the expense of the oppressed. The Nazi era is the most obvious precedent, which is why they keep trying to draw parallels.
In this framework, speech that undermines their oppression narrative, even if factual (e.g. the Goolag debacle) risks swaying hearts and minds toward the oppressors, so that they can keep on oppressing and eventually that leads to gas chambers. But in the mean time, it just means more people of enriched melanin being shot by cops, somehow.
Recall, at VidCon, when Anita Sarkeesian got pissed off at Boogie for having the nerve to point out that cishet white males like himself can be victims of harassment too and that shouldn’t be ignored because of his accident of birth, and he got applause for it. She berated him backstage; he was totally blindsided, and couldn’t figure out why she would take issue with that. Well, that’s because his statement undermined the class oppression narrative. If that narrative falls apart, so does the whole Marxist project of class conflict bringing about revolution, since the economic class conflict narrative fell apart during the 20th century and isn’t coming back. Turns out, Capitalism has been too successful at improving the lives of workers.
It makes complete sense that the true believers will deny reality no matter how obtuse it makes them look because their prime directive is to push that narrative into global acceptance. See: making themselves look like ignorant fools over cultural appropriation. Ironically, they are so far down the rabbit hole that nobody does a better job of pushing away hearts and minds than their own antics.
As with most arguments involving progs, it’s not about what they say it is about.
Treating words as violence provides the justification for actual violence in response. This, in turn, provides a method for psychological suppression and enforcing uniformity of political opinion.
For the evil ones this is true. Fort the army of useful idiots, many believe this. Not all profit. Hence useful idiots. But nonprogs need to fight this shit going to schools and the like. I mean we will lose that fight, but at lest we can write some angry blogs about it.
Great article, thanks Pie
Ditto.
I’d like to believe that the vast majority would agree with the author’s sentiments, and that it’s the outlier nature of the snowflakes that draws our attention.
Sort of how like the MSM scours the world to find novel ways that somebody died today to shock / frighten us.
“it is not a representation of general society” That’s What counts, in my daily dealings with the Public, most don’t care, or laugh about the SJW Speech Bullshit.
I guess I hang around a bunch of people (Customers) WITH JOBS!
My 2 cents, GOTTA GO TO WORK! WHY AM I HERE?WHY AM I YELLING?
Because you drive a kia which makes you feel like a poor person
/True
/gets in V-10 Ford Van, Codename: the Dragon
Hey, I drive a Kia Optima.
*narrows gaze*
I drive a Hyundai Elantra because it keeps me drippin’ in bitches.
Dolla, dolla bills, y’all!!!(literally)
You drive a vehicle named for the acronym for killed in action?
Hey, I made it through 3 deployments – I laugh at fate!
HA HA!
I know, I saw yer skirt get caught in the door.
I commute to work in a chevy sonic.
I catch a ton of shit for it from the guys at the plant.
Until they see your gas receipts.
“See, more money for beer!”
insert Mtrueman / crazy mary = “ergo, you must all listen to me right here and now”
Meh that part mostly covers the legal free speech and government. But there is a difference between shitty opinion and just trolling in private contexts. I mean I can write a comment just using shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker motherfucker and tits, you don’t need to listen to me. But you can say the cops should not show up at my place.
+1 for the George Carlin reference. We need more like him.
“Mtrueman”
GAH?! I had blanked all that out….thanks, man. 🙁
If White Indian showed up here, could we led him go without catbutting him?
Cause he was fun.
*mulls over catbutting robc for that*
I am 100% catbutt free so far.
Not sure how that has happened. I need to up my game.
Great article. One area of free speech I need to clarify my beliefs is harassment. At what point does one person insulting another (I’m fine with that) cross into intimidation (waiting on the public sidewalk every morning to insult them)? I’m not sure.
I dont think you have a clear way of determining just a framework
cross into intimidation (waiting on the public sidewalk every morning to insult them)
In that example, waiting on the sidewalk is an action, not speech.
But, its a hard line to draw in a more general way.
Harassment/Harassing speech is about intent.
Any law that relies on determination of intent is always a mess. but imo its still a valid distinction in law. When people claim ‘advertisements’ offend them, they have no claim because its not even speech directed at *them* specifically. Whereas your example of someone posting up on a street corner every day just to yell, “FAT WHORE!!” at a slightly-overweight sex-worker…. intent.
Truth is an absolute defense?
*runs away*
I actually made it a “true” example (she is fat, she is a whore) for the point of clarifying that the intent is makes the speech harassing.
the problem from a free speech position is that that a trans-person might say that people who refuse to call them “xe” or “xer” are harassing them by refusing. they’re ‘intentionally’ using terms they don’t prefer!
the defense there is that the terms the offending person uses are the same terms they use with every other organism with similar genitalia. its not harassment to refuse to cater to people’s speech-whims.
I get it…I was being a smart ass.
Interesting, I hadn’t thought about the mens rea angle. Thanks.
I would feel the speech of my fists would be an appropriate response.
I think that is where a decent jury system, one where the jurors are informed and jury nullification is a common and accepted thing, would be the way to go. Some times Dudebro’s asking for an ass whipping, as others have said it’s impossible to set some hard and fast rules for when that ass whipping is justifiable. A good jury system where 12 people can look at the overall situation and decide ‘yeah he was asking for it’ or ‘maybe he deserved it but you crossed the line when you kicked him in the jaw after he was down.’ Not perfect but better than what we got.
They try so hard to claim oppression – the very thing one should overcome – when none exists. But what are the optics of that? How does it help women, for example, when some feminist screams hysterically about everything? Makes ’em look real rational, doesn’t it?
Two reasons
-first, if your livelihood depends on a problem existing, that problem cannot ever be solved in your eyes
-second, and equally important – making people parrot obvious untruths demonstrates your power over them.
As Theodore Darlymple put it
I wonder how much of these SJW types are looking for a cause, any cause to fight because growing up the heros they learned about were fighting real oppression. They want to be noble, but all the dragons are slain.
I think a lot of the high profile ones do it as a cynical cash-grab. If you’ve seen Thunderf00t’s or Sargon’s videos about Anita Sarkeesian, it’s pretty clear she’s a scammer.
Don’t even need to see those to figure out that she’s a grifter. I mean, she doesn’t have an actual job – this is it. Ginning up fake outrage and using it to shake companies down is her métier. It’s how she makes a (dishonest) living.
Just because she does it for money doesn’t mean she’s not a True Believer. It’s not mutually exclusive. The money didn’t start coming in until she got famous for pushing the oppression narrative onto gamers who know their hobby way better than she does.
Crap hit post before I was done.
For those of you who don’t know about her, and don’t want to look at videos, she’s a feminist SJW (yeah, I repeat myself) who claimed video games were totally sexist, and did a series of videos which had a bunch of cherry picked “evidence” ostensibly backing her claims. She set up a GoFundMe account asking for donations. After she made a video, she then claimed online “harassment”. After that happened, she received a ton of money from feminists.
She was also invited to Google to lecture on harassment, feminism and sexist shitlords.
And to testify before Congress.
And to testify at the UN.
But people criticizing her are just overreacting to a nobody with no influence whatsoever. Because they are sexist shitlords.
The scamming was pretty clear after her Kickstarter for her “I read poorly written academic feminism at a camera” project that netted in six figures…and she took years to finish it, constantly falling behind her release schedule and showing no real noticeable improvement despite the money.
Nowadays she’s clearly desperate for attention again, what with the Sargon deal.
Agreed, but not just the attention – also those sweet, sweet victim card bucks she can get from feminist suckers.
Don’t worry the Mother of Dragons will bring them back into the world.
But snark aside. I agree with you. I liked what one commentator called them. “Civil Rights reenactors”. The big problem is that it shunts aside looking at real problems that we do have. Are police shootings based on racism or the fact that immunity corrupts? How about we look at holding police accountable for their actions?
“Civil rights reenactors.” That’s gold.
I dunno, I think “civil rights pretenders” works better. Reenactors strive to maintain some sense of context and accuracy.
I think JT calls them “civil rights LARPers” which gets to the heart of it.
I like em all.
“civil rights living historians”, thank you very much.
Note: I’m not actually a re-enactor. I don’t know why anyone would willingly wear a lot of heavy wool in the summer.
I haven’t been since I was a teen. I ought to take the wife. She’s never been to a civil war reenactment.
I don’t know why anyone would willingly wear a lot of heavy wool in the summer.
Baseball in the 1970’s, Chip.
How does it help women, for example, when some feminist screams hysterically about everything?
It doesn’t, and its not really supposed to. The delusions of the the weak-minded aside, feminism and other lefty isms aren’t about helping women or whoever the designated oppressed group is. Its about the acquisition and exercise of power by the apparatchiks and nomenklatura of The Movement.
That is an incredible quote. And it sums up so much of the modern progressive and SJW. Even the demand for new pronouns falls into this. As did the response to the Google memo.
Its why I loathe euphemisms, like “undocumented immigrant” and “climate change”. They are intended to obscure reality and force compliance with a particular (delusional) view.
Well I said they are scammers in the article.
Superb article
Loved the article. Now get the fuck out of my head.
*tightens straps on tinfoil hat*
Brendan O’neill gave a speech once titled “Fuck your Orthodoxies.” Really good stuff, you can find it on youtube. It’s just too bad that he’s probably going to end up in jail for thought crimes if he doesn’t leave Great Britain soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWrljX9HRA
I can not agree to this. Here is my long winded reason for why I think so.
As libertarians, we often hear the word “free” and think “free from government coercion,” and that’s all well and good. I get on that train too. But in this particular instance, I don’t think that’s free speech. At least, I don’t think that’s all there is to free speech. It is a necessary condition, but it is not a sufficient condition.
I think that, due to a few issues intrinsic and specific to speech, free speech and the societal benefits thereto require more than just the free-from-coercion type of free. I think that free speech requires the freedom that a ping-pong ball has to bounce around your game room. That’s a metaphorical statement.
Here’s what I mean in more concrete terms. I think these are all necessary conditions too: Free speech includes the freedom to be wrong. Free speech includes the freedom to play with ideas you aren’t sure you want to commit to yet. Free speech includes the freedom to hold unpopular ideas without being exiled from a community.
And again, I’m saying “freedom” and if you’ve found our way to this circus-of-the-damned website, you are probably associating that with government force and I’m asking you to think of it more like the ping pong-ball-freedom.
“Your can say whatever you want, but you don’t get to be free from the consequences,” is a standard response. I say that if this is the state of affairs, that is not free speech. I say that, in a system of free speech, the only “consequence” for speech (outside of particularized exceptions like fraud) is that you need to put up with other people proving you wrong and exposing you as a dumb-ass.
Here is why I say this. All technological, social, and moral growth in a modern civilization comes from renegades bucking dominant narratives. This is true in science, in social orders, in entrepreneurism, and in the advancement of our moral understandings. These advancements have allowed humans to live longer, better, and more pleasant lives. This argument that I’m making stands firmly on the utilitarian outcome. Jonathan Rauch, a liberal but no libertarian, makes this argument very well in this book.
And what’s more, the ‘harms’ associated to free speech are minuscule compared to those we put up with in order to defend other rights. For the yokels: We let people starve to ensure private property. We let negligent discharges happen to ensure the RKBA. For the cosmos: We let (in theory) let guilty people go free to ensure the right to due process. We force people to sit in a box and listen to, for hours on end, lawyers speak (ugh) to check the governments power to throw people in a cage for much longer periods of time. The harm from free speech is minor in comparison, and can be ameliorated with a conversation with a sympathetic listener.
For these reasons, I think that there is more to free speech than just lack of government coercion. But, as a libertarian, I know that the solution to the other conditions isn’t and can’t be “make the government force people to allow all these other necessary conditions of free speech.” This task is left to all the other tools in the toolbox, like persuasion.
So its our job, as advocates of free speech, to make the case for cultural and organizational structures that encourage free-like-a-ping-pong-ball free speech.
When someone claims to be an advocate of free speech but isn’t acting in a way that’s aligned with my list of necessary conditions, talk to them about it and let them know what you see. “You say your are advocate of free speech. But when you heard this guy’s bad argument, instead of saying no one should listen to him based on a deconstruction of his argument, you just said “nuh un” and should just never be listened to. That doesn’t change anyone’s mind and makes your position look weak. Its how a three year old argues about bed time. Are you really going to cede the moral high ground to him just like that?” Yeah, OK, that’s kind of contrived sounding, but I’ve had that conversation with friends more than once, and sometimes it even works.
When its not your friend, a more publicly addressed statement of “This person would rather tell someone to shut up and kick them out of their group than they would actually prove that what they said is wrong. That’s because they can’t prove them wrong. They know the only thing they can do is make sure you don’ t hear them,” is the way to go.
Rauch, in his book, says that while the first amendment is great, Americans use it like a crutch. If something doesn’t violate the first amendment, its not a violation of free speech. In Europe, they don’t have that. That’s generally a bad thing, but it makes defenders of free speech a little bit stronger because they don’t have that crutch to lean on. I don’t know if he’s right. I’m not exactly an international man of the world. But he seems right that Americans use the first amendment as a crutch. I’d rather not lean just on that.
Damn it. If the mod that approves my comment would be kind enough to please close my bold tag at the end of the sentence, I would appreciate it.
Like that?
*waggles eyebrows*
Like, I’d be willing to be your wingman at the bar if you need me to chat up a hot girl’s ugly friend, but not appreciative enough to take the ugly girl home.
Appreciative enough to at least convince her to go to a second, separate bar?
Lucky for you, I am married.
How many artistic or scientific ideas were ignored during the lifetime of the artist/scientist but were celebrated long after their death? Bunches, right. So it doesnt matter. They can be ostracized and criticized and whatever during their lifetimes, but the advancements will still occur.
The point isn’t that the right people feel good when they are alive to feel good. It is that people respond to incentives. If people operate in a world where heterodox ideas are negatively incentive’s, they don’t get put forward, and can’t turn into the technologies or social structures that make life better. If people are incentives to generate novel ideas and get rewarded for them even if they are unpopular, you get more ideas.
I’ll give you an example from sports. For a long time, everyone knew that in football you have 3 downs to get a first down, then you punt or kick a field goal. Statistical analysis made a compelling case that this was wrong. This statistical analysis came out of academic and then blog environments, where novel idea creation is rewarded. It took decades for this idea to penetrate to an actual team. Why? It wasn’t because football coaches are stupid and don’t know the game as well as statisticians. Its because they were punished for having new ideas the same week they lose a game, and not rewarded for a new idea unless it led directly to a win.
So in one environment you reward new ideas and you get a new idea that leads to better strategy in like the 1988.
In one environment you punish new ideas and you don’t get that new idea, even though you have more people spending more time trying to optimize football strategy.
Don’t matter much for football. But replace it with abolition or cancer fighting drugs and its a big deal. A delay in those realms of just a few years and the aggregate harm is huge.
But my coach has been going on 4th down for 35 years now. Heterodox has its advantages.
Or put another way, if you were heterodox in 1988 you won more games. And eventually others caught on.
It doesn’t matter how fast ideation happens in football. It doesn’t bother me that most teams still run and punt too much and don’t kick enough on-side kicks. That doesn’t really lead to bad outcomes for society as a whole. If a coach wants to kick onsides but self-censors to avoid social backlash, that doesn’t hold anyone back.
It does bother me when there is a slow down in ideation science, technology, moral understanding, and social structures. That does lead to bad outcomes for society as a whole. If a scientist self sensors, or if an entrepreneur self censors*, or if someone with an idea that advances our moral understanding self sensors, that makes everyone worse off.
*Much as I dislike Atlas Shrugs, the Rearden metal explains this well.
But without government intervention, Reardon metal would have been used by Dagny, et al, despite public outcries against it.
Or another example:
https://uploads7.wikiart.org/images/vincent-van-gogh/irises-1889.jpg
Would that have ever been created if he had been accepted? Or is the fact that he wasn’t what drove his art to greatness?
I think vn Gogh was dealing with some mental problems that would have tormented him no matter what happened with his art career.
Of course. But maybe it would have lessened the blow if he had been successful.
This isn’t meant as an argument to torture artists/scientists to get better results, my point was more that he wasn’t doing the art for acceptance.
And I agree with you on the personal level, I am not a fan of ostracizing people. But the opposite is to support “public accommodation” laws
I had intended to explicitly denounce public accommodation laws for this purpose when I wrote the following.
I think persuasion, not public accommodation laws, are the way.
I agree on persuasion, but that is what the others are using. “He is bad, we will persuade others to not hire him.”
Put another way, I think ENB is an ass, but her tweets are her trying to use persuasion.
And our criticism is counter-persuasion.
Persuasion is just a tool just like a knife is. The morality is in the hand that employs it.
This.
While the First Amendment guarantees our right to be free from government sanction for free speech and our freedom of association means we *can* ostracize someone for any reason we like a commitment to free speech requires that we refrain from doing so because mob action to punish those with unpopular opinions is actually far more dangerous and powerful than government action to do so. Locking someone up for speaking unpopular opinions makes them a martyr, ostracizing and driving them from the public sphere makes them a pariah.
“still not seeing the problem”
/sjw
I disagree that the only consequence should be other people proving you wrong and calling you a dumbass. If you work as a pediatrician and repeatedly say that vaccines cause autism and the clinic fires you for it, I am totally ok with that consequence for your idiocy. I don’t see that as infringing on your free speech rights. The clinic isn’t required to endorse what you say, especially when it falls within the clinic’s field of expertise.
Hypothetical:
I pay you to be my assistant. My money, my choice. You start telling customers that my product is shit and that you have to deal with complaining customers constantly, that you’d never buy it.
Can I fire you?
Yes you can fire me, but if your product IS shit and I DO have to deal with complaining customers on a daily basis, you can’t sue me.
If I am an at will employee, yes. If we have an employment contract, maybe / maybe not.
I didn’t address this because I was getting long already.
“Can” is an important word. Can you fire me, yeah, its your business. My post is about “should.” Should you fire me? I think that turns on the explicit and implicit job responsibilities. If you hire me to be your assistant, its reasonable to expect me to work toward your business ends in good faith. If i’m telling your customers your product is shit, I’m not doing that. You should fire me.
This applies even more to Tulip’s question. A doctor’s primary job is to communicate with patients (other than to give shots and whatever). If the doctor is saying things on behalf of the clinic that the clinic doesn’t want him to say, he’s not doing the job he signed up for.
If you hire me to stack bricks, and I go to work every day doing a good job of stacking bricks, and then I go home and tell my neighbor “I think vaccines cause autism,” you shouldn’t fire me because of that. Its outside of a work setting, its not in contravention of your business interests. It’s scummy and distasteful and would make me a scummy and distasteful person. But putting up with scummy and distasteful people gets easier when you can say “Look, I know he’s said scummy and distasteful things. But scummy and distasteful people have a right to earn a living, everyone knows that. If you fired me just because you don’t like me, you’d be scummy and distasteful too.” Easier to do when your customers value free speech. Harder to do when your customers demand ideological purity. This, of course, is applicable to lots of opinions. You could put commie or libertarian or pro life or pro choice in instead of the autism thing.
If i’m telling your customers your product is shit, I’m not doing that. You should fire me.
OK, so your “free speech” is limited.
I don’t see how that limits free speech. That you’re no longer paying him to do so doesn’t stop the ex-employee from saying your product is shit.
Yes. All rights are limited. All rights can bump up into other rights.
Here, my right to engage in a contract with you (work to your business ends in exchange for $$$) and your right to set conditions of the employment me bump up against my right to free speech.
By the same token, you don’t have unlimited rights to set conditions of my employment (in my world, I’m sure others here would differ). You can’t require me to enter cattle slavery or sacrifice my life, or give up participation in a political party as a condition of employment.
God I suck at words. Your “your right to set conditions of the employment on me.” “chattel”
Well, except Elizabeth Nolan Brown. And the guy’s tweet wasn’t even that distasteful.
Good example
I employ a salesman, who is white. I have a range of customers, white, black, Asian, etc. My salesman starts an anonymous blog about how much he hates blacks, gays and Asians. He is doxxed and it features heavily on the evening news. I want to fire him because many of my customers don’t want to give business to someone who hates them. Am I a scummy and distasteful person for firing him? Am I damaging free speech?
This is the one of the closest calls I can think of for my framework. It calls for you to bear a heavy personal burden for something I’m only defending as providing diffuse, generalized benefits. That is a weakness of my framework.
I would say that if you had publicly committed yourself to my framework of free speech, found yourself in this situation, and acted in a way that comports with my framework, that would be an act of great virtue.
Yes, unequivocally, even if its understandable why you would do so.
My solution is utopian and unlikely ever to happen, but it is for a societal change where your customers understand that your salesperson’s distasteful speech is his, not yours.
Close in the sense that the logic of my frameworks says yes, that makes you scummy, but common moral intuition says no, that makes you reasonable.
“Your can say whatever you want, but you don’t get to be free from the consequences,” is a standard response. I say that if this is the state of affairs, that is not free speech. I say that, in a system of free speech, the only “consequence” for speech (outside of particularized exceptions like fraud) is that you need to put up with other people proving you wrong and exposing you as a dumb-ass.
Whatever happened to taking the consequences for your choices? The reputation of a business, for example, is a valuable asset of that business, as evidenced by the fact that people will pay substantial sums of money for your business based on it. If you damage the reputation of my business by telling lies about it, why shouldn’t you be responsible for the consequences of your wrongful action? Or, a different example not involving the legal system, I have an employee who is constantly running down the company, slagging the managers, cursing at customers – all nothing but speech. Why shouldn’t I fire him for it?
Here is why I say this. All technological, social, and moral growth in a modern civilization comes from renegades bucking dominant narratives.
Sounds like a collectivist justification for people to not have recourse against other people who cause damage with their speech (caveats for wrongful speech and actual provable damages). I have to sacrifice my business’s reputation on the altar of the “growth” of “civilization”? Not thanks.
Don’t get me wrong – I am saying that, at the margins, speech should have consequences other than people pointing and laughing. For most cases, pointing and laughing is fine. But saying that speech never merits a response stronger than that is actually denigrating the importance and power of speech.
I see you dealt with employees above. But note what happens when you say that an employee should be fired for nothing other than their speech. You are saying that speech in some contexts speech should have real consequences.
Now we are just discussing what contexts. Employment? Sure. Fraud? Sure. Speech outside of work? Welllll, it depends. If you spend your off hours slagging the company blah blah, why shouldn’t I fire you? If its totally unrelated to employment, well, we are getting increasingly granular, subjective, and context-dependent here. And it begs the question of why I should feel any obligation to associate, via employment, with anyone whose personality or views I find repellent, for any reason.
But scummy and distasteful people have a right to earn a living, everyone knows that.
Nobody has a right to earn a living, beyond the negative right.
If you fired me just because you don’t like me, you’d be scummy and distasteful too.
Refusing to associate with scummy people makes you scummy? I thought it was the other way around.
Defamation? No? Which poses the question, why not? Why should the victim of false accusations that cause real quantifiable damage just have to suck it up and take the hit for the Greater Good?
If someone spends their off hours slagging the company, I don’t consider that “unrelated to employment.” The employment thing is very context dependent. Life is very context dependent. Having a good framework allows one to address new contexts.
I’ll stand by what I said here. I don’t see any value in praising someone for being so feeble they can’t stand to be in the presence of someone who thinks differently than they do. I have a lot more respect for people that are able to work with people in spite of differences.
Seems like your hang up is libel and slander? That’s one of those things that falls under “outside of particularized exceptions like fraud.” The employment think I talked about above in reply to OMWC.
More than that, really. Although that’s the bit that is most controversial in libertarian circles.
Freedom of speech and its consequences inevitably brings in freedom of association. I think employment consequences for speech are squarely freedom of association issues. You point out that you are talking about the “should”, and I get that, its that I have a different “should” for firing people whose fat yaps aren’t helping my business. I don’t think I have any obligation to associate with anyone.
Really, I was reacting to the overall thesis that “outside a few narrow exceptions, there shouldn’t be consequences for speech.”
How incapable of self-control are we if hearing an opinion – no matter how bad it may be – makes us feel threatened, fearing for our safety?
That question fills me with rage. I must control you to control myself.
OT, but this is too damn funny.
Oh! took me a while, I was seeing “Why cheese is the sexiest thing you can eat”. The article wasn’t making sense with the headline.
Sharp cheddar cheese was great with turkey for lunch, I’ll have some cheese tonight with a sandwich to.
What’s wrong with being sexy? /Nigel
Wow. Great article, Pie. You are getting good at this!
Time was, it was a matter of pride to overcome adversity. You had it real tough and you made, conquered every obstacle. Now it seems to be the opposite.
Happily, I don’t think this is the case. I think that there is a lot of attention paid to the snowflakes, but I come across people in the real world who absolutely embody the toughness you describe (young and old).
Could just be that my people and home are those of rural Americana, but I see the mental toughness and responsibility taking far more then I do the snowflakes.
They are loud enough to appear larger.
There are plenty of them, but we know where they congregate.
I like to take occasional media breaks. It always reinforces that people are essentially how they’ve always been and that most of the whipped up frenzies are fucking absurd.
I’ve noticed that, the less I pay attention to the news and the less time I waste online, the happier I am.
But I keep coming back. I’m a glutton for punishment I guess.
*nods*
Whole Foods…
Doom lives in Boulder. I suspect his sample is slightly skewed.
It’s… strong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnPsjCQXywM
That’s really accurate. and funny.
*sigh*
I’m dying!
“I just love the mountains. And I love to talk about my connection with the mountains. I spend more time doing that than I do in the actual mountains. Friends invite me for an easy hike up Mount Senitas – 15 minutes into the hike I’m out of breath from the elevation and hating my life. But still pretending I’m enjoying myself because I’m one with the mountains.”
That’s perfect.
His bit on millennials has some good chuckles too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00FDR1E0zvE
i think that’s the entire point of snowflakism = become the subject of everyone’s attention; by doing so, it forces people to conform to public pro/con positions. then you shame the ‘cons’.
see ‘transgenders’. they represent an almost insignificant proportion of the population, and it shouldn’t be necessary for the general public to have any opinion at all about them, but we do, because snowflakism has forced the issue.
I’ve wondered the same thing – why exactly are trannies such an enormous issue now despite the fact that they represent such a tiny percentage of the population? How many fucking stories about these people have been in the news over the past few years? It’s beyond absurd.
yes. but that’s the entire point: create some fake-issue that everyone has to take sides on, then use the mob-advantage that lefties have to shame/ostracize anyone who has wrongfeels
the more trivial and tiny the subject, the better. because as long as its just an ‘opinion’ and has very little connection to daily reality, the easier it is to split otherwise very similar people with zero tangible experience w/ the subject apart
Global warming/climate change pretty much works the same way.
Communism requires constant revolution. They create new controversies to divide people further and
allow forrequire more government control.why exactly are trannies such an enormous issue now despite the fact that they represent such a tiny percentage of the population
In order to demoralize the normal people, to force them to accept things they know aren’t true in the service of breaking their spirits, achieving domination over them, and increasing the influence and control that these vile people have in our society.
People who get up every day and handle their shit rarely make news. There are lots of them. Go work on a big construction site and you’ll see a bunch of young men who show up 5-7 days a week at 6am and work until 5pm. Or manage to show up consistently for night-shift after the first paycheck (those guys are hard core).
So, if the story that the DNC “hack” was in fact an inside download is true, does the Seth Rich theory start to look more believable?
i think they remain 2 entirely separate stories until someone @ Wikileaks actually states that Rich was a source.
It doesn’t help them not look more undeniable.
/straff’s coworkers.
yeah, I think the DNC was absolutely from a staff member.
I’m really hoping that the defendants of the Fox News/Trump Campaign lawsuit have lawyers who pursue aggressive discovery.
But Trump asked Putin to hack Hillary’s server, so we know who’s the true culprit!
I’m sure the jury would be interesting in seeing the FBI knew about that before the story ran.
I just read that story and it is some of the best journalism I have read in a long long time, which is why it is never going to see the light of day on mainstream news.
From The Nation, no less! Talk about my shocked face, for real.
Well said.
One of the new-ish prog memes on free speech being pushed, or at least parroted by more people today, is that free speech is only a government issue. I’ve even heard (read) people say that it’s not censorship if it’s not the government doing it. As I’m sure we’re all aware, the constitution only forbids government from infringing the right to free speech, free speech itself is innate and exists out in the rest of the world. While no one should be forced to give a platform for a speaker, organizations that would claim to be open forums, from Google/YouTube to college campuses, do in fact infringe on people’s free speech when they refuse speakers based on ideology, as do the hecklers who shout down a speaker they don’t like. It may be their right to do so –the organizations, not the hecklers–, but that doesn’t make it any less a thing. I’m sure this is just a ploy started to disallow others from calling out their bs while they silence opponents that is now parroted by useful idiots.
There are two things: government as law which is slightly more important, as not getting stoned to death is cool, and of society, which should be tolerant in the true non-sjw sense of the word
Agreed, and it’s important to hold them up for criticism when they do it.
While these internet services may seem unassailable now due to their popularity, nothing could be further from the truth. Twitter, Google, Youtube, and Facebook could be replaced in a matter of months if enough people lost faith in them.
Look towards MySpace, Friendster, Yahoo, AltaVista, Digg, etc…
Excite, Hotmail, Ask Jeeves….
I feel like most progressives, today, understand “free speech” not as an individual right but as a collective right, and see speech as something that should be controlled in order for ‘society’ to be “free”. (Non-threatening, etc). “Hate speech is not free speech” totally conforms to this understanding of free speech. I think they’re wrong, but I also think that when people who value individual rights try to talk about this stuff with progressives they just end up talking past each other.
I think it’s part of the long tradition of socialists, etc. to redefine words, along with changing used vocabulary, to make themselves sound more reasonable and pull people to their side. Even Hayek talked about this in Road to Serfdom. They are anti-freedom, but that doesn’t fly with the masses, so they redefine freedom to mean not having to make tough choices because government makes them for you. Now they’re the ones promoting freedom and who doesn’t like freedom? Etc.
What was it sarcasmic (pbuh) used to say? “Freedom means being free to ask permission and follow orders,” or something to that effect.
That’s a really good point. Like speech is a thing we all do together, and freedom of speech refers to a freedom to be a part of the collective act. When you engage in speech that isn’t acceptable to the group, you’re actually trying to monopolize that freedom by making it your own at the cost of the comfort of others.
Ugh. I need a shower.
OT: Why Gadhafi’s downfall scares the life out of Kim Jong Un
CNN manages to write an article on this topic without once mentioning Obama or Hillary.
Well see Gaddafi just fell down a flight of stairs and ended up sodomizing himself with a bayonet by accident, there was no poorly thought out actions by any other actors that should be criticized.
Or as Palin’s Buttplug likes to put it on TOS, “DURR HURR NO AMERICAN CASUALTIES AND WASN’T EXPENSIVE SO IT WASN’T DUMB LIKE THE BUSHPIGS’ WARS”.
CNN blames NATO and The UK. Makes them closer to the truth than PB.
NATO only does two things that the USA doesn’t tell it to do, jack and shit.
Gaddafi was probably fucked once Western Europe started their shenanigans, but the U.S. throwing their hat in the ring only served to completely delegitimize their ability to negotiate with dictators. The message the U.S. sent diplomatically was clear: “If you’re a dictator, don’t trust us, because even if we agree to something we’ll come back and fuck you in the ass the first chance we get.”
This…and the other side side of the coin will be when Afghanistan crumbles again.
If we stuck to hit and leave for punishing, and stuck with disarm and cooperate and we will leave you alone, no matter how distasteful…. sigh.
It’s pretty incredible how the global state of affairs popped ex nihilo from Trump’s head the day he took office. It’s amazing that North Korea developed a nuclear delivery system in just six months, and it’s going to blow minds when Iran has nuclear capabilities in under a year.
They did say the British let him down. So, so brave.
How the hell can opinions trigger PTSD in people with no imaginable reason to have PTSD? And if they do have it, we need to see how in the modern world people are so mollycoddled as to get PTSD for no apparent reason.
I know a girl who is very, very immersed in social justice culture and spends basically every waking moment participating in the Oppression Olympics. She recently was very triggered by people being rude to her in an IRL setting. And I mean, they were rude, it’s not like they weren’t. But generally speaking, when someone is rude to you, you’re like, “Ugh, fuck them,” and then you move on. She obsessed over it and dwelled on it so much that she wound up having a full-fledged hysterical meltdown. She was in the doctor’s office for an unrelated checkup at the time of the meltdown, and the doctor was like, “Holy shit” and had to give her a sedative to calm her down.
This was maybe six months ago. And she’s still obsessing over it. She’s still having meltdowns over it. She’s letting it control her life. It’s ridiculous! I was there for it so yes, I know, they were rude. Yes. They were assholes to you. But you’ve got to let it go. And she won’t. She is now trapped in this “PTSD” of her own making, because she’s talked herself into believing that this situation was much, much worse than it was, and she replays it in her mind over and over and over, and tells herself how bad it was, repeating that to herself until her body starts manifesting these trauma symptoms. That’s what all these triggered SJWs do. They see each other behaving like that, and they believe that’s the proper response, and they feed off each other that way. It’s really like a cult.
What was the rude scenario? You can change the names to protect the innocent.
She was taking a foreign language class for fun and was having trouble keeping up in it. The professor broke them into conversation groups and the people she was with were annoyed with her because she wasn’t at their level. They were doing stuff like rolling their eyes when she’d mess up and gritting their teeth and turning their back on her and trying to exclude her from the conversation, and when she talked to the professor about it he told her he couldn’t help her and to drop the class. So I was like, screw it! Just drop the class! If you want to learn the language, just take it online or use Duolingo or something. But she got it in her mind that they were oppressing her because she’s got dyslexia or something, and the college should have made accommodations for her because of it, and now it’s six months later and I’m still hearing about her trauma on almost a daily basis.
I didn’t get that bent out of shape when a company hired me, strung me along til I dropped out of my masters program, then fired me two weeks into my new job.
Don’t get mad, leave fish guts behind all the A/C registers on your last day.
Was she a self-esteem kid who never was allowed to fail at anything before? Sounds like it.
In all fairness, fuck her. If she’s struggling, that’s nature’s way of a) telling her she’s a non-hacker and b) that she needs to work harder at it. And it’s really entirely (b).
I don’t blame the rest of the group for ignoring her since she’s trying to force them down to her level. Shaming has (or used to have) a powerful role in letting people know when they’re fucking up and need to change themselves.
Meh, I think it’s rude to be that way to someone’s face. But she doesn’t need to keep dwelling on it and making Mt. Everest out of a molehill. I also didn’t see why she felt the need to stay in the damn class and try to force them to accommodate her. They’re not going to. Cut your losses and figure out something else. If you’re having that hard of a time with it, self learning is probably going to be better for you anyway because you can set your own pace.
I find what they did to the girl as being rude but like you said, she needs to get over it and move on. Oddly enough, i had the same experience as the girl during college. I took French as one of my majors and I was not keeping up with the class and barely got B’s in some of the previous classes I took. The students who were proficient were assholes towards me except for one girl who pulled me aside and said, “Maybe you should find a different major.” My ego was hurt obviously but I changed my major and it benefited me at the end.
sounds like they were going for extra credit.
*polite applause*
I think we have a case of different cultural values here.
Most people don’t just start out being that rude to someone. They start out at least attempting to be understanding. The rudeness comes later when they’re fed up with someone’s bullshit.
Yeah, they may have had a valid point but they handled it in a shitty, passive-aggressive way.
Seriously. I was once friends with a victim of a gang rape (no joke) who handled her life better than MLW’s acquaintance.
That sounds like a place to either get better quick to prove them wrong or just leave. Holding the rest of the class up seems like the worst option.
It sucks that people were mean to someone else learning with them, but whatever.
Next time she mentions it, start rolling your eyes.
still not seeing the “rude” bits. If she was in over her head, its not the responsibility of the rest of the class to get stupider so she can feel comfortable.
**disclosure: i sucked at foreign languages too and switched to latin because i was far better at ‘vocabulary’ than ‘pronouncing shit like a fag‘
She can’t let it go. It’s her claim to fame now. By overreacting, she becomes a “victim”. By becoming a “victim”, she gains standing in the SJW crowd.
It’s her own damn ego that’s getting in the way of her being a normal person.
It’s called a feedback loop, and I believe the younger generations have been trained, either unwittingly or otherwise, to fall victim to them at a much higher rate.
Sounds like there’s a component of mental illness to this one (as opposed to the ones who do it for attention or power, and the forementioned scammers above).
It would be unfortunate if that is the case. If it is, then the SJW crowd is actually hindering her psychological recovery.
I was at a war museum and watched a chick melt down because on display was a captured Nazi flag. It was a beautiful moment for my kids and me.
I think I would not be able to keep my mouth shut if I witnessed that.
I was a little taken aback when i realized why she breathlessly said “I have to get out of here…” I thought maybe she had to pee or something until I heard her tell her male companion that she couldn’t look at the swastika.
My kids mocked and ridiculed to perfection. The rest of the day they would pretend to be triggered by things.
She was obviously a psychic and channeling a few hundred thousand Dachau victims.
Your kids are rad.
I hope my kids end up being that cool.
I find the holocaust museum overwhelming. It is just unrelentingly horrifying. It is supposed to be, it depicts something horrifying. Maybe it was just something like that.
The Dublin Famine Memorial was one of the more depressing things I saw in Dublin. Worse was watching some parents trying to coach their kid into the position of one of the statues.
Nope. Totally different. This was a display of war souvenirs that British soldiers brought back. There was also a Japanese flag, swords, belt buckles, knives, etc.
I’ve stood in Dachau. I understand the power of those places.
And I mean, they were rude, it’s not like they weren’t.
Did they tell her that women are on average more predisposed to neuroticism than men?
So she is a victim after all. A victim of her own bullshit.
“when she talked to the professor about it he told her he couldn’t help her and to drop the class.”
One of the ancillary problems with the whole “protect me” movement: it’s gradually removing the ability of people to talk to one another if offense has been given/taken. Instead they go running to an authority figure.
“And I mean, they were rude, it’s not like they weren’t.”
Yeah, the older I get, the more I work to not act like that no matter what people do. Too many memories of being an asshole when I was younger and treating people like shit. All of us are broken to one extent or another. I’m not going to cave to everyone’s whims & needs but I can say no politely.
I’m working on that, but people are so stupid
I wonder how often she’s said this:
“Don’t tell me I’m over-thinking it!!”
by “sedative” do you mean the doctor slapped the crazy out of her?
My gunnery sergeant when I was in Yuma, who despised me, made me run at least 5 miles with his marathoning ass every single goddamned morning. When I couldn’t keep up with him because he could run at a 6 minute mile pace for hours, he’d keep circling back to call me a fat fuck (which I wasn’t, but I didn’t have 2% bodyfat like him so I was fat by his standards), a bleeding gash, a fucking pussy, a waste of life, etc, etc. He also stuck me on barracks duty every other day for about three months straight and, on the days when I actually went to my actual job, assigned me nothing but shit jobs like watering the grounds and rust-busting the trailers. He made my life miserable for a long time.
Now, I bitched endlessly about all this, but I certainly didn’t sob and run to a therapist and claim he gave me PTSD. I have nothing but scorn and contempt for these people.
I’ve taken to responding to people demanding hate speech laws with “Fine. I’ll support them. On one condition. The founding Arbiters General of Hate Speech will be Rick Santorum, Milos Yiannopoulos, and Richard Spencer.” Somehow, they lose interest in the proposition after that.
I want ICP and Marilyn Manson on that board as well.
Well, my concern is that ICP and Marilyn Manson wouldn’t take “a strong stand against hate speech”. The premise is that my picks would jail the people demanding hate speech laws under the hate speech laws.
scratch Milo from your list then.
Opioid “crisis” officially declared a National Emergency.
*panics, buys emergency stock of naloxone*
Those dirty opioids aren’t going to get me.
The only way I’m buying a headline with ‘opioid’ and ‘crisis in it is if the word ‘shortage’ is somewhere in between.
I know a girl who is very, very immersed in social justice culture and spends basically every waking moment participating in the Oppression Olympics. She recently was very triggered by people being rude to her in an IRL setting. And I mean, they were rude, it’s not like they weren’t.
It appears to me they were acting in self defense.
I think it’s rude to be that way to someone’s face.
If you insert yourself into a pick-up basketball game with a group of people who are all better than you, and then proceed to miss every shot you take, you’re not going to get the ball. And then, if you still don’t get the message, you’re probably going to be on the receiving end of some egregious fouls.
But what if your hero was Bill Lambeer and you just make sure no one on the other team can score?
Random bad joke
What do you call a math class full of SJWs?
Triggernometry.
Better be careful or you’re gonna get a Swiss Army narrowed gaze in the back
I was going to say {}, i.e. “empty set”
*slow clap*
Did you try that joke first in a Romanian comedy club?
A perfect quote for our times. Thank you.