![](http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cb/07/a0/cb07a039e9b13d2945faa4e4885a4f1c.jpg)
Libertarians discussing anything.
Recently, within the Liberty-o-sphere, much hay was made over a speech by Jeff Deist, president of the Mises Institute, titled “For a New Libertarian.” Steve Horowitz, Professor of Economics at St. Lawrence University took issue with Deist’s employment of the phrase “blood and soil,” calling it a “clearly racist and anti-Semitic Nazi-era phrase.” Reaction to Horowitz ranged from pointing at him and hissing ‘Jew!’ to more measured responses. From my reading of the speech, I find claiming Deist’s employment of the phrase to be “clearly racist and anti-Semitic” to be uncharitable. However, I do find the defense of “Blut und Boden” being first coined by 19th century German romantic nationalists to be a bit odd in this context, as I wonder why the president of an ostensibly anarcho-capitalist think tank would choose as his cri du coeur a phrase that was the very center of the ideological foundations of the modern nation-state. Indeed, lost in all the back-and-forth over whether or not “For a New Libertarian” is Mein Kampf redux is the larger question: Is thin libertarianism dead?
Horowitz, as a self-styled “Bleeding Heart Libertarian,” is a proponent of what is known as thick libertarianism. That is, the belief that libertarianism entails certain social and political beliefs, namely a lukewarm 20th century humanist liberalism. Thickists argue that a society (or an individual) is not truly libertarian unless there is a general belief in egalitarianism, tolerance, democracy, etc.. On the other hand, Rothbardian anarcho-capitalists argue for thin libertarianism, which is defined as the belief that libertarianism equals the non-aggression principle – nothing more, nothing less. At least they did until Deist’s speech two and a half weeks ago. When Deist argued that “[i]n other words, blood and soil and God and nation still matter to people. Libertarians ignore this at the risk of irrelevance,” it is an explicit rejection of thin libertarianism; he is saying that there is more to libertarianism than the NAP. However, contrary to the Bleeding Heart Libertarians, Deist and others now argue that it entails some flavor of traditionalist social conservatism.
As an anarcho-capitalist, I’m quite used to completely execrable human beings advocating for positions I share, which is why I believe Deist’s recent gambit to be wrong-headed. In the name of attempting to make liberty more appealing to people, Deist is, in fact, limiting and delimiting the movement extremely narrowly. Deist claimed “Mecca is not Paris, an Irishman is not an Aboriginal, a Buddhist is not a Rastafarian, a soccer mom is not a Russian,” yet here I am, the son of a Rastafarian and a Jew who converted to Buddhism at the age of 24. Thin libertarianism is what allows me to stand ranks with Deist against ever-encroaching statism. I need not agree with Deist’s new penchant for romantic nationalism, but as long as he respects the NAP, we can co-exist in the liberty sphere. It’s a shame the moonshine is so good that Deist keeps wanting to be invited to all those yokeltarian hootenannys down in Auburn, for with the death of thin libertarianism, the liberty movement may have suffer a self-inflicted dolorous blow from which it will not recover. Contra Deist, what will, in actuality, doom libertarianism to irrelevancy is fracturing the movement along 1,000 little stupid country mouse/city mouse pissing matches.
![](https://glibertarians.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/thicclibertarianism.jpg)
Thicc Libertarianism on the other hand…
Nice, HM.
I would violate that chick’s NAP…wait, am I doing that right?
You’ll have to ask her.
“what will, in actuality, doom libertarianism to irrelevancy is fracturing the movement along 1,000 little stupid country mouse/city mouse pissing matches.”
Libertarians are truly like herding cats. That’s what happens with hardcore individualism. Instead of fracturing we just need to agree to disagree and keep in mind that our enemies on the left and the right need to be kept in check and this is more important than the disagreements. Except for the cosmos, they got to go.
Yeah, enough with the purity tests, just support each other in areas of mutual agreement where liberty can be advanced. No need to call each other Nazis and whatnot a la what’s his face on Twitter earlier today.
I think this principle can be somewhat extended into the politics of the other parties. Rand Paul is doing something like that. It makes sense and allows you to claim “bipartisanship”.
There needs to be more liberty leaning candidates in both parties. And right now is fertile ground, as the left seems at least nominally interested in liberty under Trump.
“Libertarianism is like herding cats.”
Let’s see, highly skeptical of authority, responds to encroaching on our right to be left alone with rabid self defense, highly territorial (where our territory is the “true libertarian) particularly to other of our kind…
I think libertarians really are cats. In fact, the catbutt is probably just a classy selfie of Swiss.
*narrows gaze*
HM, you are a treasure. And I don’t mean that just because we share an affinity for thicc Asian women.
Seriously, you sum up my less eloquent feelings on this very matter.
Thank you, Jefe.
Please let it be known that I own a fedora just like the one depicted in your avatar.
Heroic “Silky” Mulatto. Rolls off the tongue if you ask me
Nice article.
I heard the whole speech and all I took away was his criticism of cosmopolitans arguing that attachment to country and culture is stupid or racist. I didn’t sense that Deist was advocating that attachment to country or culture is right or wrong- just that this is a human instinct.
The cosmotarians were really disingenuous in their criticism
Attachment to culture is not stupid or racist. It’s sort of who we are as humans and always have been. I can keep an attachment to my own culture while simultaneously appropriating several others, even at the same time. Variety is the spice of life. Now get off my lawn you dirty Guatemalans!
I agree with Deist that humans have cognitive bias towards reification, one of the ways in which he and I part ways is that he seems to be advocating using it as a tool in an appeal to pathos. I take the more Less Wrong approach and see libertarianism, Austrian economics, etc. as vehicles to help teach people how to think better (i.e., correct for their cognitive biases).
I took his appeal to pathos as rejecting international bodies and such. The whole speech seemed to be an attack on the globalist libertarian mentality.
I tend to agree with your criticism here too, but ‘libertarians’ who are supporters of a EU style bureaucratic international body in order to ensure open trade and immigration are badly short sighted, in my opinion
Even when arguing against interventionism and such, I believe appealing to baser tribalistic instincts is a dangerous game. You can only ride the tiger so long before you get bit.
same here, but it took me 2000 words to say so below.
I’m not going to attach myself to a guy called Deist.
“Blood and soil” is a phrase that got ruined almost as badly as the swastika was. Thus, avoid it.
And in any case, America supposedly created a new kind of patriotism…yes, still based in part on the land, but ethnicity-wise, developing a new *American* ethnicity…which grows more and more inclusive as time goes on…various waves of immigrants absorbed, African-Americans unfortunately getting integrated last, but (HM can correct me) “ethnicity” is from the Greek word for “nation” and we can speak of an American nation. I prefer the “salad” metaphor to the industrial, uniformity-implying “melting pot” metaphor, but hopefully we have a country for which people are willing if need be to die, and hopefully to live.
And the glue is (or used to be) some common ideas, often violated, but when adhered to, producing excellent results…inalienable rights, etc.
And of course we wouldn’t be the country we are without immigrants, as indicated by the fact that George III’s restrictions on immigration were one of the grievances justifying the War of Independence.
But now we are supposed to pretend to believe (in theory, not in fact) in an “open-mindedness” so broad that the wind audibly whistles through our ears…letting anyone waltz in and be a law unto themselves, even if that law means violating the rights of others. As a country to which people *want* to come, let’s be welcoming but have *some* standards…what country ever survived without any borders at all?
But the problem isn’t immigration as such, it’s that the population we have already needs to wise up again to the founding principles…apply them fully this time…
Anyway, my 2 cents, great article.
It’s worth noting that America was founded well before the 19th century conception of the nation-state. The romantic nationalism that spawn such slogans as “blood and soil” was a reaction to the large, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual, and in some cases, multi-religious realms, like the Austro-Hungarian Empire in which a people could be ruled by a monarch far removed from them by location and culture. The aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars lead many to believe that peace could only be achieved when people were atomized into neat little countries in which a common culture and language unified an ethnicity.
…and if minor details about sharing out Europe among the various groups in an equitable manner had been worked out, like Wilson tried, everything would have been cool…of course you can’t blame Wilson for everything but “naive” doesn’t even begin to cover his retardedness.
+1 Emperor Haile Selassie I.
That’s quite interesting and telling.
Since the slogan is (I think – watch me now faceplant before a superior intellect) German, it is the opposite – it’s about importance of surpassing local loyalties of being a Wurtermberger, Prussian, Saxon or Rhinelander, and recognizing common bond that all German peoples share, removing the petty power-hungry princes who keep them disunited and forming one state to go with one nation, starting with a confederate assembly, and ending with wholesale Prussian takeover, sealed in two wars (with Austria to determine leadership, and with France to unite the realm fully).
Rather OT but that 1st picture really excited me. I’m a little too muggled to go digging through the attic for my old Dragon and Strategy And Tactics magazines but there was an article in the late 1970s that presented a mixed RPG scenario wherein a scouting element of a Wehrmacht rifle company travels through a misty forest and stumbles upon a wizards keep. Hilarity ensues as genres collide. Thanks for reminding me of it.
I think it’s from this book.
I’ve always really wanted to run a GURPS Weird War 2 campaign.
I haven’t done any RPG gaming in some 20+ years but that looks interesting enough to check out. I do love me some Steve Jackson; the only non-Games Workshop product I’ve played since the late 1980s was their Illuminati: New World Order. Oh, and Lunch Money; it was always a drunken go to.
Rather off-topic, but that second picture really excited me.
That said, I was pretty into RPGs when I was a kid, and ran a number of campaigns where wizardry met warfare,
““he’s appealing to Nazi phrases and signaling his support of Hitler.””
That’s Horowitz referring to Deist and is speech. Dog whistles everywhere. If Horowitz had taken the measured position that HM takes in this piece, I don’t think anyone would’ve gotten pissed off. Horowitz has a history of linking Ron Paul and others at Mises with “NAZIS!”, so it wasn’t just some random criticism that made people angry. The principles Deist advocated in this piece would wind up neutering any potential Nazi governmental policy .
I think there’s more to libertarianism than the NAP. I see the NAP as a rule of thumb rather than a hard and fast rule. Generally speaking, I neither defend it nor attack it–although I think using it as outreach is ineffective advertising for a lot of people. Libertarianism already suffers from a reputation for being axiomatic, but telling people they need to believe in an axiom in order to join the club isn’t just bad advertising, it’s factually incorrect. Anyone who wants to shrink the government and respect other people’s rights should feel right at home–whether or not they sign onto your favorite axiom.
“Do unto others as you would have done unto you” works just as well.
Julian Sanchez did a pretty good job of addressing the NAP here:
https://www.libertarianism.org/blog/non-agression-principle-cant-be-salvaged-isnt-even-principle
As far as an anarcho-capitalist talking about nationalism, it depends on the context, but at some point, if you start believing in the nation state, you’re no longer an anarcho-capitalist. In context, if he was talking about outreach, that’s a different thing.
To reach people who aren’t already capitalist or anarchist, you have to meet them where they are. If he’s talking about how anarchists need to reach out to people who aren’t already anarchists, to people who really believe in the Constitution and the flag, then he hasn’t abandoned anarchism. He’s just talking about marketing strategy.
As far as “blood and soil”, seeing an anarchist use that phrase sets off my irony detector. It’s like saying you’ll have to do things you don’t want to do in order to reach people. My read is that it’s like when people say they’re going to have to “hold their nose” and pull the lever for Romney. If he’s saying that sometimes you gotta crawl through a hundred yards of sewer pipe to get to freedom, then It’s like he was denigrating nationalism–even as he was saying that they need to take consideration of the fact that people might be more open to anarcho-capitalism if they didn’t think it was hostile to well-intentioned patriotism.
That’s quite a conundrum.
I’m not an anarchist. I think there’s something to be said for patriotism that’s predicated on Constitutional rights. Our country is unusual in that our Bill of Rights does an excellent job of approximating our natural rights. Neither the UK nor Canada nor Australia have a First Amendment or Second Amendment like we do–and it makes a big difference in the real world.
The fact that plaintiffs must prove malice and damages in defamation cases, here, and the fact that I can own a gun means real differences in the real world. In the Commonwealth countries, politicians can and do sue journalists for getting it wrong, and they have hate speech laws. In most Commonwealth countries, they can’t choose to own a gun like I can. The reason my rights are protected here in America is because the government has done a pretty good job of protecting those rights–despite a never ending barrage of assaults from the government itself and elsewhere. No doubt, the government remains the biggest threat to our rights, but I don’t enjoy our freedom of speech and gun rights by accident. The Constitution did that.
In context, if he was talking about outreach, that’s a different thing.
It was more of recognizing that it matters to some people.
I didn’t read it that way at all. I read it as advocating a retreat from the long-held principle in libertarianism that the individual is the fundamental unit in society.
If I told you that maybe we should just “sieg heil” the Cheeto in Chief–’cause at least he’s better than President Liz Warren–you’d know I wasn’t literally suggesting that we should become Nazis . . . because I’m a libertarian.
There’s no official sarcasm font, but when I read an old school anarchist writing about “blood and soil,” it makes me think he was being sarcastic if not ironic. Maybe I’m reading it wrong.
As cav pointed out below, he was responding to an essay by Jeffery Tucker that employed the term pejoratively. Tucker argued that “blood and soil”-type libertarianism-in-one-country was injurious to liberty and Deist disagreed.
I read it as more pessimistic – if you can have a smaller government without come-to-Rothbard mass movement where everyone becomes a an-cap (and you can), traditional structures will regain importance, for many of the reasons they had that importance before, both practical and emotional. Deal with it. Recognize it, be ready for it.
Where I think he is mistaken is treating preferences of many as preferences of all, immutable and pre-set. “A soccer mom is not a Russian” is just flat out wrong – I bet 10,000 rubles that with maybe a week’s worth of effort you can find a whole neighborhood in Russia of ‘soccer moms’ (easier still – how many soccer moms in US are Russian?)
1 – The actual quote:
Unless there were other, repeated, “racist and anti-Semitic” code words being employed… i think hyperventilating over that sequence of words says more about the person having the hissy-fit than the author. I haven’t read the rest of the speech, so tell me if i missed some of his invisible stiff-armed-salutes.
2 – “thick vs. thin”
every time i hear this shit, it seems to be cast in a different way. and every time i find myself thinking, “I don’t fucking like *either* formula”
here’s my problem (see if i can say it as succinctly as possible):
– i simply don’t think you can have doctrinaire libertarianism without the entire precursor-body of classical-liberal thinking. Libertarianism is simply a branch on that tree. even if you try and reduce it to “NAP…and nothing else:… i personally think whomever says that is
lyingtaking a lot of stuff for granted, leaving them assumed, pretending that the myriad problems these other thinkers addressed will be addressed in a simple way… because the people doing the addressing will already be conditioned as instinctive classical liberals in the first place.meaning, i don’t think you can strip Locke or Hume or Smith (et al) out. They’re part of the package, whether you explicitly admit it or not. without their frameworks, you can never get to any social precondition (to borrow a sorta marxistish phrase) from which a pure-NAP-following group of folks would even be possible.
So i don’t think much of the “Thin” formula. I think they pretend its all very easy to simplify the formula and let everything else “just work itself out cooperatively” . … when all that extra ‘work’ actually involves assumed ideas they don’t want to take responsibility for.
But i don’t like the characterizations of “Thick” either, which… if it were just “well, there’s all these older thinkers which are entirely necessary”, I’d roll with it.
BUT its more like “Here’s this ONE VERSION OF LEFT-LIBERAL THINKING” which is framed as the necessary component. It can’t just be “i also believe in Lockeian self-ownership”… it has to be “I also endorse Social Justice theory and handing out Ass-Dildos to junior high kids…. because its not enough to be *tolerant* of gay-stuff, you have to fucking celebrate it every. minute. of. the. day. or. you’re. hitler.”
So i’m left unsatisfied with both. Sorry! i’m hard to please.
Naturally someone with hair like that would be a perfectionist.
I’m not sure what you mean by that, can you expand on it please?
Well, as I argue, there is now a flavor of Thick that is basically this:
![](https://glibertarians.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/jesus.jpg)
Or in Deist’s words:
Yet, even in that, it is still not as “thick” as the BHLs
Everyone knows that the only true libertarians are Taoists.
I’m not going to disagree with you there.
+ or – Tao of Steve?
I think anarchism is lazy because it fails to recognize that you can’t “Unmake” enlightenment ideas which underpin how western society has evolved/will evolve.
I don’t think the “presto! all we have is the NAP, everyone sort shit out for yourselves” formula adequately recognizes that the “sorting shit out” parts will necessarily follow down the same path they’ve already lead us.
I think when deist points out:
He’s not saying that its necessary for libertarians to “get some jesus”= its saying that if you want to advance libertarian ideas further, you have to recognize that in the reduction of the influence of the state, all this other shit grows in importance. It doesn’t mean YOU have to “adopt” it (endorse), it means you have to ACCEPT it (tolerate)
I’ve only read about 2/3 of deist’s piece and i don’t read it exactly the way you do. I do agree he’s saying, “thin aint the way forward”. But i don’t think that means “thin” is dead; i think he seems to be saying that “Thin” people need to come to terms with what a “thin” world, actually implemented, would actually LOOK LIKE.
It would be FAR more socon, whether you liked it or not. It wouldn’t require any actual endorsement of that ‘socon’ world, but it would require a shitload more tolerance and cooperation with it than i think people are currently prepared for.
i don’t want to go on longer, so i’ll stop there.
That’s about what I got out of it. Bad decisions are going to be corrected one way or another.
The exact same path or a similar one? In an anarchist world, will some people get together and formal mutual cooperation societies that will evolve into something resembling governments? Of course. From a voluntarist perspective, there is nothing wrong with that as long as it respects the consent of the individual. That is what is currently missing from the present day situation, in which even in our law, we have statues concerning land ownership dating back to fedual codes.
So again, by implying that a libertarian society would necessary evolve down a certain path in order to function, it is a thickist argument. A thinist would say that as long as the NAP is recognized in both Las Vegas and in the heart of Riyadh, both societies would be libertarian ones.
I’m not buying the tolerance and cooperation are necessarily socially conservative either. Besides, it would be impossible to speak generally about any society as each would evolve their own norms and expectations.
That’s not what i said. (or, that wasn’t my translation of what deist was saying).
what i was saying was that any practical way forward which involves reducing govt in people’s lives will necessarily result in the expansion of the social/civic frameworks which people like Socons already rely on.
And that libertarians, who tend to be fairly cosmo and universalist, will need to accept that a world with more liberty *doesn’t mean* more “weed, ass-sex and mexicans”. It may mean, in many places, a far more socially conservative world.
iow “pluralism”.
So far the Socons have largely been told that they need to shut up and evolve to be accepted in the liberal-secular world. and so they mostly sort of have. But actually selling the wider US populace on liberty may necessarily involve telling those people that *they don’t have to*. And that’s a pitch that the BHL types are incapable of making.
hope that’s clearer.
Yes, that is clearer. Thank you.
And I agree with Deist, and Block (who said it earlier) that in such a society there would be communities that were basically Sodom and communities that resembled Salem, Mass. circa 1692. Where one falls into Thickism, in my opinion, is when one argues that libertarian principles would necessarily lead a society to one or the other.
Horwitz once said in the reason comments that if liberty didn’t produce his desired outcomes he’d be in favor of something else. It was at that moment I realized consequentialists were the worst sort of libertarians.
yes and i see now the confusion.
I don’t personally think libertarian principles lead society to anything in particular. by themselves that is. And i don’t think Deist was saying that either.
In my mind, i see it this way: left(thick) libertarians think that “True cosmopolitanism” and “true pluralism” is like a melting pot. Its the “its a small world after all” universe, where people of all cultures share and absorb pieces of one anothers world, and create some single utopian mishmash of it all. Its the Benetton commerical.
the reality is that the stew never quite dissolves. people actually tribalize, and they cling to their culture and their racial differences long past the ‘should have melted by now’ date.
NYC has bits of both, but surprisingly more of the latter than the former. The ones who represent the ‘melted’ bits mostly arrived looking for that. But you still have huge communities fragmented by race/creed/culture. and they get along with their neighbors better than you’d think… but they don’t necessarily *like* one another at all. they mostly want to be left alone with each other.
This is where i agree with Deist in the “Political Universalism is Not the Goal” bit.
This doesn’t strike me as him recommending some “thick” version of SoCon, Get You Some Jesus-Libertarianism…. but rather a political framework in which you can fit all the multiplicity of ‘types’ of libertarians, and give them practical political goals to work toward, rather than trying to convince each other of the benefits of their respective cultural worldviews.
Maybe, I’m missing something, but why does thickism include “libertarian societies inevitably will be a certain way”, rather than just “libertarian societies inevitably should be a certain way”?
there would be communities that were basically Sodom and communities that resembled Salem, Mass. circa 1692.
I’m not trying to be a pest, but also, what exactly do either of those things mean in the absence of coercion? A Sodom where you don’t have to pay for some dissolute’s poor life choices and aren’t coerced to bake cakes seems a more so-con friendly arrangement than we have today. Also, a Salem where people are free to have stoned, Mexican ass sex hardly seems to bear much relationship to the actual Salem, Mass. circa 1692.
I’ve always taken thickism to be more based on “politics is downstream of culture” – if you don’t have a culture that is conducive to liberty, then you won’t have liberty (for long). Cultures that respect property rights, self-reliance, and personal responsibility are going to be more supportive of libertarianism, for example. Cultures that celebrate victimhood and entitlement, on the other hand . . . .
The thickists tend to project their desired culture as the one that is supportive of libertarianism, of course.
I’ve always taken thickism to be more based on “politics is downstream of culture” – if you don’t have a culture that is conducive to liberty, then you won’t have liberty (for long).
The problem is culture is downstream from economics, which is downstream from politics. A society that subsidizes victimhood is going to be a society in which victimhood is acceptable and then virtuous. A society where people have to get by without looting their neighbor is going to be a society that values property rights, self-reliance, and personal responsibility. It’s more cyclical than downstream.
I also think it all really boils down to the fact that people’s capacity for pluralism – even among the most cosmopolitan-posturing – is not nearly as expansive as we imagine. It exists, and it grows in increments, but its far lower than the Reason.com style libertarianism would like.
people mostly prefer to surround themselves with people who look like them, act like them, and reinforce each other’s norms. and they want lots of cultural baggage to be part of their chosen world.
and Deist identifies this as the problem that libertarians face when offering people a simple formula:
what people WANT to hear is that their own chosen dogma/culture/community, which is often pretty damn SoCon… will not be interfered with.
By contrast, promising people some sort of utopian, one-size-fits-all, cosmopolitan world where we can all collectively get high and assfuck and let mexicans do all our manual labor because [cue Benetton commercial/small world after all] “we’re all humans deep down, man!”…. yeah, that shit won’t sell. Because it would mean telling them that their prejudices and their sexual mores and their narrow-worldview is incompatible with the Libertarian Bigger Picture. And even if you did legally achieve some Cosmotarian Coup with the wave of a wand… that very large mass of people would still exist and not be interested in the “freedom” you’re trying to bring about.
Does that mean we have to get more comfortable with homophobia and bible-beaters and racists? No. It just means not telling them they’re de-facto disqualified from living in the better world you have in mind.
I think that the specific argument between Deist and Horowitz got a lot more heated specifically because its occurring in a much wider issue where the ‘cosmotarian’ brand of libertarianism is actively trying to isolate and alienate various people who don’t kowtow to their specific brand.
Seems that way to me. Cato, Horowitz and, well you know the place, have a war boner for the Mises Institute. I’ve only ever seen Mises guys punching back at these attacks. FFS, if you have a racist that is drawn to Anarcho capitalism, it simply means they don’t understand what it is.
Unfortunately, there are a metric shitload of racists drawn to AnCap. Have you ever seen Hoppean Snake Memes?
Nope. Quick google gave me this.
All their memes seem to be about throwing people out of helicopters and border control. How far do I have to scroll to find the racist ones?
Until you find “forcible removal” ones.
TBH, I live a pretty cloistered life when it comes to all the groups that call themselves libertarian. Maybe confirmation bias, but since I recognized the danger the state poses, I’ve found people that explain in greater detail why that’s the case. As soon as I see nutty racists chiming in, I outta there. Ain’t no one got time for dat.
I googled and now my autism has autism.
Thanks, Heroic Mulatto!
I had been looking on their FB page and couldn’t find it. Should have just image searched their name first.
A few things I did notice:
1) Their memes suck almost as bad as leftist ones
2) They have a lot of likes (35k on FB), but not a lot of user interaction- typically a few comments on each post which get a few likes themselves. I ‘liked’ a statist page that actually is pretty racist, as in I don’t think you could miss it. They get comments that have 1-300 likes on every post.
Just saying I’m not sure we’re attracting anymore than the normal number of racists. It wasn’t obvious from looking at the FB page that their audience is actually that engaged with them. A lot of the people may have liked the page for a specific meme they enjoyed without agreeing with everything they post (or even having seen the offending matter).
I’m down with that helicopter shit.
I think I mentioned what happened to r/anarchocapitalism in another thread. Yeah…”race realists” certainly seemed to have glommed onto the name, although I don’t really understand how it can be reconciled with the NAP once you’ve thought it through.
Then again when it comes to the actual philosophy I’m not well read, so I’m sure I’m missing lots of info.
Racist thoughts, just like say, being a communist, isn’t inherently anti-liberty.
You just have to realize that forcing your opinions on others is wrong and you can still be a (thin) libertarian.
Wasn’t Deist’s use of the phrase “blood and soil” a response to an article by Jeff Tucker, who used the phrase in an earlier article?
Yes. I also now see that I linked it in the wrong place.
But, as you can see, I was distracted.
Are there links? I just came for the thiccness.
Never let it be said that HM doesn’t deliver.
My.
God.
*removes sunglasses in a combination of appreciation and awe*
I uhm… will be in my bunk.
God. Damn.
As you might guess from my handle, I don’t artificially separate a pro-liberty philosophy from a traditionalist conservative philosophy.
Of course, it all depends on what tradition you’re defending, but – and I’m not trying to pose a Chestertonian paradox – what American conservatives should try to conserve is…the tradition of American liberalism.
I mean the liberalism of the Declaration, Constitution and Federalist Papers, not the mutant strains of liberalism which aren’t so much into liberty. And the documents I cited of course have antecedents, leading back to Suarez, Bellarmine, Aquinas and other great figures.
What an excellent opportunity to have one’s (voluntary) cake and eat it too – liberalism and conservatism met in one glorious philosophy which leaves people alone more than other rival philosophies which have actually been implemented. Trying to implement that has always been a problem in the U. S. – but somehow we look good compared to countries which didn’t try at all.
and today’s winner of “completely missing the point”….
Public university cancels ‘White Lives Matter’ rally, violating First Amendment
https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/35542/
***
A regent of the Texas A&M University System is on the record saying it can’t block a “White Lives Matter” rally scheduled for Sept. 11 on the flagship campus in College Station.
As a public institution, TAMU would violate the First Amendment if it denied a public facility to a group “due to political ideology,” he said.
TAMU did it anyway.
The Texas Tribune‘s Patrick Svitek tweeted Monday night that Chancellor John Sharp said the event “has been cancelled,” according to the university’s representative in the state house, John Raney. Another Tribune reporter quickly confirmed with the university.
***
Come the civil war, who’s the softer target, uni faculty/administrators or journalists?
I’m armed to the teeth, personally.
Journalists it is !
I’ll look for Sam Hyde in the trenches.
Heroic Mulatto may represent a minority amongst college professors. To be on the safe side please avoid mulattos of any kind when engaging in your horrific and violent purges.
Linguists are usefully learned.
Am I going to have to be the first one to point out SIV has a chicken in his avatar? He knows the crowd.
That only meets the type of creature he likes to fuck, not necessarily the creature he represents.
Titor, that was what I meant. This is the first time I saw SIV post here, I was just pointing out that he has embraced the meme from TSTSNBN. I was saying good on him.
unlike Irish, who seemed to be driven off by the meme about him. Has he ever turned up here? Do we know if it was the meme that drove him away, or was he shot while being brutally racist?
Probably for the best just to avoid accusations of racism.
I’m an aggie. I’m disappointed really. We had a chance to show other unis how to disagree peacefully…there was already a thing up for a counterprotest…i was trying to sway things that way. No dice.
Researcher dismisses science ‘conducted primarily by white men’
http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9585
***
A physics researcher at the University of Washington says the controversial Google memo is just the latest example of “shoddy science” that is “conducted primarily by white men.”
Dr. Chanda Prescod-Weinstein dismisses the memo’s citations of peer-reviewed articles by arguing that “science has often made its living from encoding and justifying bias” and is “conducted primarily by white men.”
A physics researcher at the University of Washington says the controversial Google memo is just the latest example of “shoddy science” that is “conducted primarily by white men.”
“It’s 2017, and to some extent scientific literature still supports a patriarchal view that ranks a man’s intellect above a woman’s,” physics Research Associate Dr. Chanda Prescod-Weinstein complained in a Slate op-ed last week, written in response to the memo in which former Google employee James Damore criticized the company’s efforts to effect gender diversity.
Specifically, Prescod-Weinstein takes issue with the contention—related to her by a “well-known scientist”—that “the Google memo failed to constitute hostile behavior because it cited peer-reviewed articles that suggest women have different brains,” arguing that “peer-reviewed” is not synonymous with “correct.”
Prescod-Weinstein asserts that, rather than placing value in the contents of peer-reviewed scientific articles, we should recognize that “science has often made its living from encoding and justifying bias” and is “conducted primarily by white men.”
***
[head desk]
How long until they are tearing down statues of white scientists?
Yeah, no risk whatsoever that someone with “Weinstein” in their name has anything to lose if we start dismissing the work of scientists based on their race. /sarc
Google her.
I Googled her, but not because you told me.
Well, they’re going to eventually get around to that if they’ve run out of other things to tear down.
Good. Walk however many smoots it is from your office to the EAPS office and tell them that.
Follow up qustion.. how many smoots to a hawley
The blud, how it sings to me…
Since the “D&D” subject was already broached, I recommend the YouTube channel of one Matthew Colville. Start with his “Making a Fighter in Every Edition of D&D” series.
Or, try his “How to be a DM” series. He also has a playlist of videos he calls “Campaign Notes”, in which he runs a game for some of his coworkers at Turtle Rock Studios (his real job is as a game writer. He worked on “Evolve”, among other games.).
In addition to all that, he has written two pulp fantasy novels, “Priest” and “Thief” that I found diverting, and recommend.
This guy sounds like a nerd to the nerd power.
Thanks, I’m going to check that out.
Haha…played a dwarves fighter in 2nd ed. Now that….well actually it was fun as hell, but not were the wizards overpowered by lvl 12
MSNBC falsely claims “right-wing extremists” responsible for “three times more deaths” than jihadis
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/08/msnbc-falsely-claims-right-wing-extremists-responsible-for-three-times-more-deaths-than-jihadis
***
MSNBC’s Stephanie Ruhle incorrectly claimed Monday that right-wing extremists are responsible for “three times more deaths” than Islamic extremists.
“Between 2001 and now, we have seen three times more deaths caused by right-wing extremists than Islamic terrorists,” Ruhle stated during her show.
Assuming Ruhle was referencing a widely-cited report by the Government Accountability Office, Ruhle’s statement was not only misleading, but just plain wrong.
The GAO report found that between September 12, 2001 and December 31, 2016 there were 23 fatal attacks carried out by Islamic terrorists that caused 119 deaths. In the same time period, right-wing extremists carried out 62 fatal attacks that caused 106 deaths.
Islamic terrorists were thus responsible for more deaths than right-wing extremists, not the other way around. Right-wing extremists did carry out about three times more attacks, which could be what Ruhle meant to say on her show.
If one looks closer at the timeframe of the GAO study, one will note it starts tracking terror on September 12, 2001–one day after the deadliest terror attack in United States history. If the September 11, 2001 attacks are included, the number of deaths caused by Islamic terrorists jumps up by nearly 3,000.
***
[face palm]
Does that include Fort Hood?
That was workplace violence, not terrorism.
I’m starting to see, later than most of the folks here, why Reason lost its way.
Cocktail Libertarianism is not what I signed up for.
I saw it back in 2006. Then I finally noticed they had comments below the posts…
Trump Denounces Racism in Charlottesville. Too Little, Too Late. (New at Reason)
Nick Gillespie | 8.14.17 8:40 pm
lol in retard.
Didn’t Reason used to be critical of this sort of thing? POTUS must make a statement and he must denounce a certain group?
LP chair is doing a something.
Let me guess…something retarded?
Cosplaying the Judean Peoples Front/Peoples Front of Judea sketch from the movie Life of Brian. Sad.
It is. I don’t even really care. I just don’t care for the LP recruiter and PR guy doing that.
Splitters
The Monty Python guys seem to have had some familiarity with left-wing infighting, at least enough to exploit its humorous potential.
…and I presume modern comedians continue to mock left-wing stupidity? Because it’s just gotten funnier in the interim.
I wish I could say yes.
Unfortunately comedy isn’t what it used to be.
I lack detailed knowledge, but sometimes I get the impression that a lot of it is “I hate Republicans, they are so stupid.”
Yeah. I only watch older standup now because of it. You know Eddie Murphy and the like
Comedy Central had “That’s My Bush“…nothing during Obama, now “The President’s Show”. Kind of looks slanted.
The one saving grace is south park. I’m not sure how trey and Matt keep it alive really.
To be fair, it’s not as if Obama or other Democrats have done anything ridiculous which could be mocked mercilessly. /sarc
“The one saving grace is south park. I’m not sure how trey and Matt keep it alive really.”
They have pictures…pictures of Mohammad.
CPRM, “That’s My Bush” really wasn’t all that political. It was more of Matt and Trey’s parody of the stupid husband/smart wife sitcoms and used the ‘Bush is dumb’ meme. Most of the the humor was pretty much, “Hey, sitcoms have really stupid plots.”
thrakkorzog, the point was they (Comedy Central) didn’t attempt anything during Obama’s 8yrs. I said nothing about the content.
He’s a fucking car dealer. Some of the sole proprietor BHPH dealers are pure An-Cap but the franchise new car dealers are all rent-seeking statist motherfuckers.
Libertarian always seemed too broad to me, and I like specifics; which is why I came up with my own term for my own beliefs, Constitutional Property Rights Minarchist. (CPRM, get it)
Perhaps it’s from too much exposure to Ivan Stang but I’ve always leaned towards PatrioPsychotic-AnarchoMaterialism. Every yard a kingdom, every dog and child a serf!
I’m not one for anarchism, because if not in name, a ‘governing body’ will always exist. I realize that fact and try to force it’s influence to be constrained.
If so, I don’t care if you’re not an anarchist. You’re second sentence is what counts in 2017.
My second sentence is what has counted the whole time.
When it’s restrained to the point where roadz funding comes up, Oh Boy, are we gonna have to go at it. I think we have a few years before that happens, though.
Yes, when we get to mah roadz! as the only fight we have left, it’s fisticuffs!
I agree wholeheartedly and, as one of a very small group of HOA members who joined solely to be stick-in-the muds on issues of spending and busybodiness (we’ve knocked down 3 different proposals, just this year, to force everyone to paint their doors the same color and use the same outdoor lighting fixtures), I see this in action on weekly basis.
Bravo. Very cool that you actually decided to stand athwart those petty little tyrants.
Wanna come over? We can toss politics at code compliance guys
*molotovs not politics
Why would anyone want every house in their neighborhood to look the same?
Christ.
It’d make for a nice defense when coming home drunk and accidentally doing your neighbor’s wife.
There’s that…but imagine if the cops have a warrant for your neighbor’s house and they’re in a hurry…
No Knock, knock raid?
You cosmos are seriously lacking in group loyalty.
Dafuq is the lead pic from. It’s awesome. Djinn vs. Fuckin afrikakorps. Not enough Italians though. All ww2 stuff needs Italians. Ho bisogno di RECAM bitches
All ww2 stuff needs Italians.
Running away from battles and building inferior tanks?
More like dying bracely….
In shitty tanks. 🙁
Don’t feel bad, at least they beat the Ethiopians…
By using chemical weapons and dumdums.
Well, they also did conquer British Somaliland. Also a successful defence of the dodecanese against the british.
But yeah not much success. Lots of brave men died for Mussolinis ego and shortsightedness.
Well, they also did conquer British Somaliland. Also a successful defence of the dodecanese against the underequipped, poorly supplied british.
Your participation trophy is in the mail. The fact is that the British aren’t exactly what’d you’d call ‘quality fighters’. Italy seems to have pissed itself in regards to military action since the 5th century.
Fite me irl fam!
😉
Alright, I’m a Canadian lad of the stature that the Germans called us ‘storm troopers’, me boy. Historically we murder the backwards members of civilization readily my lad. Unlike the Italians, which seem to masturbate over their leadership until the going get’s tough. I’ll stomp your ill-gotten civilization to dust, for the glories of the forgotten British Empire!”
Newfanlanders are the only Canadians I respect.
Stompin’ Tom Connors FTW!!!
Exploding motorboats
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT_explosive_motorboat
Decima MAS was a pretty interesting unit. Some very good special forces work…but also shitbags
Avanti Savoia!
/proud owner of a 1942-org Bersaglieri battalion in 15mm
Yeeeeeaaaaaahhhh I got a 1k point italian bolt action army.
Did mine in digests di Roma style though. Artiste II…you know with the semovente 105/25. My buddy’s a power gamer german
Oh man, do my desert Italians wish they had such a sweet piece of kit!
I play Flames of War (though I have Bolt Action too), and tanks are much more important than BA so I obviously chose the side with shittiest tanks, and this game included Finland*! Luckily, I can justify a 90/56 (basically Italian 88) which would be a total point sink in BA, so I don’t have to ever use – ugh – German allied units.
*which I also play. As well as UK/Commonwealth and USSR. Games Workshop players aren’t the only ones with a problem
The semovente 90/56 or the emplacement? I’ve been considering getting a lancia 3ro with the same….ahistoricity notwithstanding.
I have both. Started out with Lancias, eventually figured that static one is strictly better, once the rules changed. But Lancia looks so good! I can’t even imagine it in 28mm scale…
CompanyB makes one – only $40. C’mon, you know you want it…
Source linked at comment #7.
Thanks bud. Sorry shoulda checked upthread as a matter of due diligence.
Very thought-provoking, and I appreciate that you’re maintaining your credentials as a connoisseur of thiccness.
I tend towards anarcho-capitalism although in recent years I’ve made peace with libertarianism as a sort of compromise between what I think is possible in my lifetime and what I would want to see as an ideal end-state. Basically, I believe that governments mirror the civil society that spawns them, and I don’t think that there’s a culture on Earth that could support the absence of a state. Not yet, at least.
And to that point, that’s where I diverge from the thin/thick dichotomy. As a guideline for policy, thin libertarianism is ideal: don’t hurt people, don’t take their stuff. To the extent that you invest in a state the right to use force against its citizens, it should be the minimal amount required to enforce those two ideals. As a template for the kind of society you need to make that work, thick libertarianism is also ideal: a society that holds individual liberty as sacrosanct is unlikely to produce an oppressive, intrusive government.
Where libertarianism goes awry is when people try to apply one ideal to the opposite purpose. Like you say, the NAP alone doesn’t do much for you in terms of social mores. “Fuck off and leave me alone” is all well and good as a judicial principle, but the fact is that we don’t live in isolation. Most people live in communities, and things that we do affect each other. Very quickly, the NAP starts to get a little leaky as a legal device. At a certain point, you have to fall back to things like basic decency, charitable behavior, and compromise. My barbecuing might offend my vegan neighbor. His unkempt lawn might annoy me. We can’t help but step on each other’s toes from time to time and the NAP doesn’t give you a clear resolution to those situations. That’s when you need so-called “thick” libertarianism, understood to mean simply the that, in order to maximize individual liberty, individuals will sometimes need to tolerate infringements on their own liberties. Not to the extent that one person or class is favored over another, just that we’re all given a limited amount of time and space and if we’re all going to get the most use out of it we’re going to have to share it.
This, in turn, must never become law. Thick libertarians err when they take apply those ideas as some sort of axiomatic dogma. It’s the Gary Johnson cake scenario. It’s the positive vs. negative liberty concept. The thick libertarians believe so deeply in liberty that they’re willing to take some from people they disagree with to give it to other people who more closely represent their worldview. Taken to extremes, this is the authoritarian-libertine version of libertarianism. Thick libertarianism shits all over the NAP, but argues that, in some cases, it’s justified because the shittees hold views that are less “tolerant” than their own.
The paradox is that you need a society with both “tolerances”: the social tolerances of the thicks and the legal tolerances of the thins. For the NAP to work, you need people willing to compromise. But for the compromises to work, you need people who adhere to the NAP in spirit. You need gay couples who are willing to find another bakery. You need hardline Rothbardians who are willing to forego burning piles of leaves windward of their neighbor’s open windows. It’s possible to have both, but more than anything you need people who are willing to compromise. Not out of gamesmanship or hard-bargaining, but out of a genuine sense of fellowship.
Ain’t no hot Asian bishes in this comment. So I didn’t read it.
Just kiddibg. I agree…society as a whole has taken this offense thing and amped it up…what we need is a thick-skinned society.
I’ve considered starting a band for just this reason. One too many times I’ve gone down Deep Ellum and caught wind of “this is totes offensive” from even fellow punks….wtf? We used to shock as a matter of course!
Sorry dude, the fiancee cracked open a bottle and now I’m schnotzed
Oh dear. This comment…yeah. sorry.
Meh, I got a little tight and wrote a book as a comment. I’m in no position to judge.
Hell, I used to remember when punks used to go check out bands like GWAR and The Dwarves, just because they were so fucking offensive. Their music wasn’t good, even by Punk standards. but they put on a hell of a show.
I don’t think thin libertarianism rejects the concept of social mores, but that they are irrelevant in determining whether or not a society is libertarian. As long as they are derived from the NAP, 1 set of cultural mores aren’t more conducive to liberty than another.
an interesting turn of events
Godwin’s Law Creator Supports Calling Racist Demonstrators ‘Nazis’
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/godwins-law-creator-supports-calling-racist-demonstrators-nazis_us_59919eb5e4b0909642986356?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
***
Following a tragic weekend of political violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, that left three dead, you may be tempted to say the white supremacist demonstrators who fomented the violence are Nazis.
Go ahead: Godwin himself wouldn’t stop you.
Mike Godwin, an attorney and author, coined something called Godwin’s law in 1990, when internet discussion boards were first proliferating. Godwin’s law famously posits, “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1.” (In other words, if an online discussion persists long enough, someone will eventually compare a person or thing to Hitler or his ideology.)
…
This isn’t the first time he’s encouraged people to use the Hitler comparison, provided that they’re deploying it thoughtfully and with an understanding of the historical context. In June, Godwin assured a journalist who had insinuated that prominent white nationalist Richard Spencer was a Nazi that his law did not preclude the comparison. Time magazine interviewed him following the exchange, and he suggested, “If you think the comparison is valid, and you’ve given it some thought, do it … We have to keep the magnitude of those events in mind, and not be glib.”
Godwin has always maintained that his famous law was intended not to invalidate any comparison to Hitler. In fact, it wasn’t really a “law” that could be “violated” at all. Rather, he has argued, it was crafted as a counter-meme, a viral idea that would push back on the still-more viral idea of Nazism as the ultimate weapon in an online argument.
***
Am I understanding what I heard on the news correctly? Are the two cops who died in the helicopter accident 2 of the 3 dead in this “outbreak of violence”?
I’m pretty sure those are the only 3 deaths…so I guess the question is
Do helicopterkin count as left or right?
VA State Police are definitely left.
the real question, did the helicopter crash left, right or center?
Yes. There was only one death at the rallies, or riots, whichever. The 2 Keystone cops who crashed their copter, I have no idea what happened there.
Helicopter got caught in the crosswinds of racism, and the pilot lost control.
Logic 101.
The law is the quoted statement. It is a law (as formulated).
The idea that comparisons to Nazis shouldn’t be made is not the law. It is a corollary to the law.
Also, just because the law and its corollary are named after him, doesn’t give him inherent authority over what they mean. Newton named a lot of laws but he was also a crackpot who believed in alchemy.
This whole argument is so niche in comparison to what’s happening in the greater society, I find it hard to care too much about it. Intellectual foundation for a movement is important, but as Tyson pointed out, “Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face.” You’ve got this giant pool of people that see what it’s like dealing with the government and they DON’T LIKE IT. I have my preference for society, but I’m not getting it anytime soon. We’re facing a government with the ability to intrude on it’s citizen’s lives to such a degree that if were to go fully rogue, it’d be a bloodbath. Austin Peterson’s penny plan would be a great start at slicing pieces of the leviathon. Let people explain why they think more of this is better. Of course there are believers that say they’ll do it right this time, but the average person who deals with government knows that those believers are full of shit. Those are the allies I’ll take at this point.
As far as all this ‘society’ stuff is concerned. relating to libertarian, there are of course, no societies that are libertarian. Societies are too big today to be libertarian. Thus they naturally start to trend statist. People cannot get away from each other, so they start deciding that their own freedoms are not as important as having an authority who can keep their scary neighbors from just doing whatever the hell they want, which must be bad, because.
I can’t remember now who wrote this, but at the time I do remember thinking that the guy was onto something. He was writing about how in the beginning of human history, groups of people were divided up into smaller groups of hunter gatherers who in general stayed away from other groups outside of occasional trading and some inevitable skirmishes and that this worked out much better. Attempts at larger groups usually went badly and resulted in a break up back into smaller groups. For 10s of thousands of years, this was what society was like. Then we settled down after discovering agriculture. But still, the large nation state is a new thing. Which has resulted in a couple of world wars which killed millions of people.
People cannot get a along in very large groups, and that results in proposed solutions like socialism exacerbating the problem and we all know how that always turns out. In a society with 350 million people, eventually things start to break down into the natural state of tribalism again. I don’t see ever having a libertarian society unless no more than a few thousand of us figure out how to get away from the various other tribes, and that’s only possible by interstellar travel to some far away place where it will take a long time for the tax man to find us.
Sounds like Varg. You can YouTube “Thulean Perspective” if curious. He’s mesmerizing and insane.
Ok. Thanks, I’ll check it out.
He stabbed a guy to death, so take him with a grain of salt.
I doubt that what I read was written by a crazy person, so it’s probably someone else. He sounded pretty serious and well researched into the subject matter. No crazy stuff that I remember.
If you remember who, let me know. Varg is someone I check out once in a while just to see what is happening on the fringe. Kind of like here 😉
DIY Fringe.
Vox really outdid themselves on this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhWPw5UZGJQ
Do these people really believe the violence was just like a group of white nationalists came across some people minding their own business and started fucking attacking people? Fights, by definition, require 2 sides. Unless it’s this.
Good grief. It’s like a b roll of fallacies.
You know I said fallacy, but I guess more accurately it’s like a rolling accretion of misleading clips and inference. If that’s technically a fallacy lemme know, cause that sort of thing isn’t my wheelhouse.
Well to start off with it says the White Supremacists initiated the violence at the 45 second mark. That assumes facts not in evidence. That’s a red flag for for a logical fallacy right there.
Sounds like a legacy airframe issue with the helicopter.
CNN’s gonna CNN. Article title: Trump has attacked just about everyone on Twitter. But not white supremacists
At what point do the heads start exploding from the cognitive dissonance.
Off course Scott Adams is on it (as usual): “Now we begin the “Was it heartfelt enough?” phase, along with “Why did he NOT mention group X, Y, Z?” (See the problem yet?)”
Is sloopy too busy waxing his ‘stache to give us the links? 😉
I know you guys say it isn’t possible, but I present to you peak derp.
It gets dumber from there.
We need common sense horsepower control.
Great piece, HM. I’d suggest that any sort of “thick” libertarianism (and that is what Deist is advocating) dooms libertarianism. The value of libertarianism, to me, is that it short-circuits the question of how people should live. As long as its on their own dime, people can live by whatever values they see fit. Trying to push either progressive or traditionalist values as mandatory for libertarianism needlessly undermines the whole project.