Non-interventionists of every stripe from libertarians to paleo conservatives to standard anti-war types have had their dreams dashed this past week after the president announced a troop surge in Afghanistan. To be fair, the president had already been offering mixed results to non-interventionists. Some actions were commendable, such as ending the CIA program that was arming Syrian opposition groups (BBC News), while others were the same interventionist impulses that we’ve seen from every post-World War II administration, such as bombing Syrian airfields (CNN). But even those who justified their support for President Trump’s election by noting his less militaristic foreign policy never truly believed that he would fulfill their long held dreams of closing overseas military bases, and ending American support for quasi-wars undertaken by our allies (such as the conflicts in Yemen or Syria). Writing in the American Conservative (a publication founded by anti-war conservatives opposed to the Iraq War) Robert Merry noted that based off of polling “it seems that the preponderance of public opinion ran counter to both of those foreign policy philosophies [neoconservative and liberal interventionism]. Donald Trump, in his often crude manner, captured this opposition view.”
With Trump, it was believed, we would finally have a conversation about our relationship with Russia, which some have argued has been overly hostile and counterproductive since the end of the Cold War (The National Interest and the American Conservative). With Trump we could finally ask the question of whether it is worthwhile to pledge open-ended military support, through NATO expansion, to countries such as Montenegro with little benefit to our own security. With Trump we could finally discuss the cost, both financially and morally, of engaging in and supporting barbaric wars against Yemen and Syria (to name a few), which pose no threat to our country. With Trump, some dreamed, we might finally come to debate the words of President Eisenhower who warned of the unchecked powers being acquired by the ‘military-industrial complex’ or, even better, we might rediscover President Washington’s warning about ‘foreign entanglements’. But, why did these non-interventionists hope that these conversations might be possible, but only with Trump?
President Trump is not a principled or moral man. He is a thrice married, petty man who finds it more important to engage in school yard taunts with his opponents rather than arguing over policy. He is no scholar, as he himself has admitted that he rarely reads (The New Republic) and, with regards to foreign policy, he has said that “I’m speaking with myself [about foreign policy], number one, because I have a very good brain and I’ve said a lot of things” (POLITICO). He is, on nearly every issue, malleable. But, since the 1980’s, when Trump first flirted with the idea of running for political office, he has been consistent on two topics: foreign affairs and trade. As early as 1987, during the height of the Cold War, Trump stated that the US “should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves” and advocated for nuclear disarmament (NY Times). During the 2016 campaign, Trump’s advocacy for non-interventionism became a topic of debate, as it was alleged that he had voiced support for the Iraq War, based upon an exchange between himself and Howard Stern. Some Republicans who had voted against the Iraq War, such as former representative John Hostettler, defended the real estate magnate and said “Last night, in the midst of the first presidential debate, the moderator prefaced a question about Sen. Clinton’s vote to authorize the Iraq War with the suggestion that Donald Trump’s comments to a shock jock prior to Sen. Clinton’s vote was equivalent to that vote” (Washington Examiner). There is little evidence to suggest that Trump was ever an interventionist, whereas he has made statements in the past and during the 2016 campaign that delighted non-interventionist advocates throughout the country, such as his skepticism about NATO commitments and opposition to continued military involvement in Syria. Even his recent declaration about a troop surge in Afghanistan was preceded by numerous reports stating that Trump was rebuffing the requests of his generals, and fellow Republicans, who were requesting that surge (The Intercept and POLITICO). It is quite logical to understand why some non-interventionists saw him as a preferable option than the status quo offered by his opponents.
Yet some supposed non-interventionists have gone about berating others who had hoped (and some still hope) that, at the very least, the Trump administration would be nominally better than sixteen years of intense interventionism. These supposed non-interventionists have gone about declaring that they have been vindicated and they have begun pondering whether those who oppose war and voted for Trump are ‘gullible’ (Reason). This is a rather odd assertion to be made, considering that most of these people did not vote for even a nominal non-interventionist in 2016. Of Trump’s 2016 opponents, only Jill Stein was more stringently opposed to adventurism overseas than him. Yet, beyond Stein, the other two major candidates were significantly more predisposed to war than Trump. Specifically, I would highlight the Libertarian Party candidate, Gary Johnson, who was the preferred choice for many of the supposed non-interventionists that are sneering now.
In 2012, when Johnson first ran for the presidency, he offered a mixed bag with regards to foreign policy in an interview with the Daily Caller. He suggested a 43% reduction in defense spending, but he also said that “he supports America’s efforts to aid African troops in tracking down Lord’s Resistance Army leader Joseph Kony and that he wouldn’t rule out leaving behind American bases in Afghanistan” (Daily Caller). Around the same time, in an interview with the Weekly Standard, Johnson also said that he supported the notion of the US waging war on humanitarian grounds (Weekly Standard). These positions are almost indistinguishable from the long-forgotten breed of warmonger once known as the ‘Rockefeller Republican’. Make war, but on the cheap. As if cost is the only issue to consider when waging unnecessary wars. More recently, in 2016, Johnson tried to avoid foreign policy issues and became less hawkish and more non-interventionist in his attitude to conflicts. He told CNN in 2016, that in order to solve the conflict in Syria he believed that “There is only one solution to Syria, and that’s being hand in hand with Russia diplomatically to solve that” (CNN). A position, ironically enough, that was nearly indistinguishable from that of Trump. But beyond a few flubs, of which the media exaggerated, Johnson spent little time discussing his foreign policy vision in 2016. So if the contention of these supposed non-interventionists sneering at Trump voters now is that Trump’s past statements, and those during the 2016 race, were not sufficient enough to conclude that Trump would be a non-interventionist than why were Johnson’s decidedly pro-interventionist positions supposed to have made him a better alternative? The only ‘gullible’ voters in 2016 were those who refused to accept what they were hearing.
At this time, it would appear that President Trump is behaving as a standard Republican president with regards to foreign policy, with a few exceptions. Nine months into his administration, we cannot determine if Trump will correct his way and become non-interventionist or continue with the interventionist foreign policy that has dominated Washington since the end of World War II. More likely than not, Trump will end up being more restrained, in some regards, than his two immediate predecessors. Which, some might argue, is still preferable than a continuation of the status quo. In hindsight, it appears that the only moral vote a non-interventionist could have made in the 2016 election was to either vote for Jill Stein or abstain. But at the time, in November 2016, there was good reason for non-interventionists to be hopeful about the prospect of a Trump presidency. And no one should fault them for the choice that they made, based upon the information that they had available at the time.
Aleppo
What’s a leppo?
/Candidate
well you can’t bomb it if you don’t know it exists
That why we bomb everything just to be sure.
It’s where Nazi cake sodomizers come from.
That cake did not consent!
laffed
Thanks for this perspective Just Say’n.
Thanks
I agree.
Hugely disappointing, up there with the refusal of the Republican Congress to do what they were elected to do.
Somehow, McMasters managed to purge every Trump appointee from the national security bureaucracy, reinstate Obama appointees, and perpetuate Obama policies. I’m still baffled as to how.
“I would bomb the SHIT out of ’em.” -DJT
Fair. Let me just say that I meant this more so as a defense of the people that are opposed to war (actually opposed to war, not the ones who forget about war when the their party is in office) and voted for Trump, because they saw him as the only alternative and not as a defense of Trump, himself. Trump is not a dove, but I don’t think that to be a prerequisite to be non-interventionist. Not expanding conflicts is significantly better than what we have seen over the past six years. I think one can say that they will ‘bomb the shit’ out of a group that we are already engaged in war with, while still maintaining that they do not want to expand the conflict (as in supported the opposition to Assad).
Yes. That is really why Jill Stein or not voting was the only moral choice a non-interventionist could have made in the last election, as I stated at the end. But, I don’t fault non-interventionists who voted Trump, because they thought he was the lesser of all evils we’ve experienced over the past sixteen years.
To be fair, I also don’t fault non-interventionists that voted Obama in 2008 (not 2012), as he also tried to appeal to a more humble foreign policy.
But, anyone who backed Johnson in 2012 or 2016 and suggested that he was a non-interventionist was just hoping that he would adhere to the party’s platform (as if the platform of a party matters to a candidate’s policy). Johnson is not and never has been a non-interventionist. He is a watered down progressive that supports humanitarian wars and backs making war on the cheap, like a good Rockefeller Republican
“Hugely disappointing, up there with the refusal of the Republican Congress to do what they were elected to do.” lol this is the funniest thing I read all day
It’s not so much Obama appointees, but that they’re Serious Foreign Relations/National Security Men. They would have been Bush appointees eight years prior.
Afghanistan was “The Good War” for much of the country and “The War on Terror” for the rest. That doesn’t leave much room in public opinion for the “Let’s Just Leave” crowd.
Trump is not my hero, but I consider him to be a net positive, at this point. If he nominates an actual banker* to be chair of the Fed, instead of another in the ongoing parade of goddam pernicious idiot academics we have had for so long, I’ll like him even more.
* like that Allison guy
Fuck that. Anything less than auditing the Fed is worthless, in my opinion. And anyone from Government Sachs isn’t a banker- but a rent seeker.
Speaking as someone in accounting that wouldn’t do anything, remember the government designs the rules for auditing themselves. You could have them audited by all accounting firms and it wouldn’t change the fact that only thing that will be shown is what they want to be shown.
True. Maybe I’m just an unnecessary contrarian. Anything that the Fed opposes, I support. Anything that Goldman Sachs likes, I hate. I guess that is unnecessarily tribal.
I can understand the sentiment, it’s just that’s more of a symbolic win than anything that will have a tangible effect. To be honest I’d much rather focus on weakening them by other methods.
How ’bout getting rid of the Fed altogether?
It is a great idea but as a political reality it ain’t happening any time soon. Running on a plank of ending the fed is a good way to end up with less than 1% of the vote. It is just too radical of an idea for most people to accept
Jefferson and Jackson disagree.
The vast majority of the populace does not have any solid opinion on the Fed, and that’s just the ones who know it exists. Abolishing it is a “radical position” because the establishment says it is and would fight tooth and nail to portray anyone who claims otherwise as a lunatic.
Put another way, you’d get 1% support because the government-academia-media complex would make the average voter think you want them all to starve and die, not because people have such an abiding appreciation for the Fed.
So pretty much the way the Elite class treats every important issue?
Years ago I worked for one of the Federal Reserve Banks. Even there, the idea of getting rid of the dual mandates or setting specific targets had a non-trivial amount of support. It’s not a free market in money. But, at least it would be a step in the right direction.
Ron Paul made some inroads, but biggest challenge is convincing people that price controls on credit (the Fed-controlled interest rate) is the reason we have booms and busts. It’s a technical argument that people generally aren’t interested in.
And it would be difficult to just use the left’s tactics of assuming everyone already knows you’re right. “Vote for me, and recessions will be a thing of the past” sounds a lot like “Vote for me, and all your wildest dreams will come true”.
Maybe the landscape wouldn’t be so depressing if the left didn’t have a stranglehold on education. And you wonder why they act like a cornered animal when they hear the name “Betsy DeVos”. I’m still thanking Trump for that one.
Results may vary.
Where would you find an actual banker these days? The Fed effectively ending banking years ago and all we have left are drug dealers that inject their poison into the economy.
“It’s a TARP!”
*provides a standing ovation*
Srsly, I think that’s Mick Fleetwood.
I never get tired of looking at this eye-melting blast of information.
Debt per Citizen: $61,321.
If we had a balanced budget amendment of some sort, I could also support a death tax equal to 100% on the first $61,321 of assets and 0% above that.
I guess the number would adjust down every year after that went in.
He’s not the hero America needed, but he is the anti-establishment wrecker the country wanted.
So will the next guy running the the kulak-man?
^ be the kulak-man?
Of course.
What if Kulakman and Floridaman teamed up? Better or worse than SMOD?
Nothing is better than SMOD right now.
If you make a video about YouTube telling you to clean up your comment section, this is what you get in the comment section of that video.
hoo boy
The problem with complying with that demand is that you are accepting the role of editor, and I’d be reluctant to undertake that without consulting the legal department at America Online, to see how that worked out for them.
So which of you guys is this?
<fx: faint sound of teaspoon clinking in glass >
“cat’s pussy”
Department of redundancy department.
The Reason link is broken. Hopefully it’s not a metaphor your your heart; soul.
And Reason mocking people for being naifs in voting for Trump, didn’t they endorse Obama?
As usual, the devil is in the perspective. Nice write up.
Very even-handed writing. Nice, Just Sayin’.
Technically, no, Reason as an entity doesn’t endorse anyone. As I remember, there were a fair number of staffers who endorsed Obama, at least in 2008.
REASON ENDORSES…..ZARDOZ.
As well they should.
I don’t fault anyone for backing Obama in 2008, either. He seemed to be a non-interventionist then, too. If you voted for Obama in 2012, though, then you’re an idiot. Reason backed Gary Johnson in 2012 and 2016 and Johnson has, for a long time, been anything other than a non-interventionist. Rule of thumb: anytime the Weekly Standard praises you- you’re a warmonger
Ah. Okay.
Never change, Rufus. Never
http://reason.com/blog/2017/08/24/were-anti-war-libertarians-gullible-for
This is the Reason link that I attached that isn’t working.
http://reason.com/archives/2016/04/12/trump-is-not-the-peace-candida
And this is what Matt Welch wrote during the election arguing that Trump was not a peace candidate
I like Matt Welch, but it’s rich to have a NATO expansion cheerleader (which Welch admits that he is) determining who is and isn’t non-interventionist
Great job as usual, JS!
What scares presidents into going all war, all the time once they hit office? The economy? The Deep State?
The Council on Foreign Relations?
Fear of the alternative? Diminished strength overseas is believed to undercut our influence on the world stage. Empire is self-perpetuating madness. Maybe that is why no empire has ever humbly retrenched, but has been forced from their pedestal
They like wearing that cool leather bomber jacket with the presidential seal on it.
In fairness, it is a bitchin’ jacket.
It’s a cycle they can’t seem to break.
I wonder if a candidate does try it may not end well for him, her or it?
/Alex Jones stare.
As a Romanian my contribution here is fuck Russia.
Is she hot? Does she have a fat ass?
T H I C C
Totally OT but speaking of thicc, I just started watching the second season of Narcos. It’s tough to make it through a single episode without catching the vapors.
Been meaning to watch that; now my timeline will move up.
The new third season was very good, I thought. I’m busy as hell, but I made the time to binge watch the season over a couple days.
I can understand the sentiment and I am perplexed when people express admiration for Putin, but there are a lot of bad actors in this world and we shouldn’t unnecessarily make war with all of them. That often makes the problem worse
I am perplexed when people express admiration for Putin,
I express…respect for Putin, because although he’s a shitbag autocrat, he’s a competent shitbag autocrat most of the time. Putin has had to crawl his way up in an environment where he has to have a constant balancing act between the oligarchs, the social conservatives/Orthodox, the old guard communists, the modern nationalists and the liberals. As such he’s become very good at politicking/realpolitiking in general. He knows how to play the game, and he plays it well.
Take the election and the shitshow around it for example. Someone asked him to comment on it, and Putin immediately distanced himself from the entire affair and said “of course we’ll work with whomever comes into power, we’re only interested in good relations”. He manages to dodge the entire question while coming off as the one sane adult in the room. That’s smart.
I’m not referring to people that remark that his strategy is solid and successful, but rather people that make glowing memes about what a great leader and defender of Western civilization Putin has become. Putin is a reactionary figure, in a world polluted with reactionaries. I can’t think of any world leader today that I would admire. Nor can I think of any in the immediate past. I suppose Charlemagne was an admirable figure. And his father Pipin was admirable for gifting the Vatican states to the papacy (I primarily say this to upset your godless Canadian sensibilities).
what a great leader and defender of Western civilization Putin has become.
Ever notice how the people who claim to be defenders of Western civilization are some of the most uncultured swine? I mean, I’m sure Jack Posobiec goes home every night to read the Nicomachean Ethics and would have some profound things to say on Baroque period music, when he’s not busy crashing Shakespeare plays.
The masturbatory fantasies around Putin I primarily find are a response to the varying degrees of cultural relativism and social justice present in the actual Western (because fuck seeing Russia as ‘the West’) political class. Putin does not have any of that, he doesn’t ‘respect’ other cultures or try to vapid virtue signal over them, he’s interested in propping up Russian culture and influence, for better or for worse. The people who praise him seem to ignore the fact that Russia is truly more ‘multicultural’ than most of Europe or the U.S., and has a higher percentage/population of Muslims than the countries virtue signalling over them.
And his father Pipin was admirable for gifting the Vatican states to the papacy (I primarily say this to upset your godless Canadian sensibilities).
Siding with barbarian kings over the true Romans of the east is only reflective of your poor character.
Bah, Romans spoke Latin, the Byzantines might have called themselves Roman, but they spoke Greek. The Eastern Orthodox Church agreed at the First Council of Nicea that the Bishop of Rome was ‘first among equals’, followed by the bishop of Constantinople. If they didn’t want to submit to his authority than they shouldn’t have agreed.
(I say this in jest, the Byzantine Empire was cool too)
Your Popes were installed by Goths, you lost your legitimacy once you kowtowed to the barbarians.
Also, the Orthodox have cooler names for their leaders. And beards. Checkmate.
OHHHHH SICK BURN BY TITOR
I will say a prayer for your tortured Canadian soul
As well as helping line the pockets of his cronies and friends. Some people speculate that he may, in one way or another, but the wealthiest person on earth in terms of various liquid assets, but there’s presently no way of knowing the true scope.
Well obviously, but that’s also a part of keeping the oligarchs on your side. As I said, he’s a shitbag autocrat, he’s just very good at what he does. Comparing him to say, Presidential candidates who insult half the electorate as ‘deplorables’ and suddenly he’s a Machiavellian genius.
Siding with barbarian kings over the true
Romans of the eastGreek imposters is only reflective of your poor character.FTFY. No empire is Roman that doesn’t hold Rome.
Arbitrary and nonsensical. The Eastern Empire was an established Roman administration region that carried its cultural heritage. It was Roman. Just because I nuke Washington doesn’t mean you people stop being Americans.
Do you promise?
Gadfly is right
Man, you guys really lap up 15th century German propaganda.
“Just because I nuke Washington doesn’t mean you people stop being Americans.”
Yes, but we don’t refer to ourselves as ‘Washingtonians’.
It’s almost like Roman citizenship was an actual legal concept or something, not just an arbitrary indicator of what city someone was from.
Just because I nuke Washington doesn’t mean you people stop being Americans.
I’m willing to test your theory.
The Eastern Empire was an established Roman administration region that carried its cultural heritage. It was Roman.
I agree with this up until the 8th century. After that, they cease to be Roman and become Byzantine in my eyes. America carries a lot of cultural and legal heritage from England, but we aren’t English. In the same way, the Byzantines were the heirs of Rome, but they weren’t Roman.
Just because I nuke Washington doesn’t mean you people stop being Americans.
If the barbarians (such as those from the wild wastes of the north) ever conquer America proper and leave us only with our overseas territories, then we will cease to be American.
people that make glowing memes about what a great leader and defender of Western civilization Putin has become.
Apparently my web browsing doesn’t take me to some of the . . . danker . . . corners of the intertubes, because I’ve never really seen that.
I think some/a lot? of the respect/admiration? for Putin comes from the perception that he is doing his job as a national leader – trying to advance the interests of his country. In Europe and the US, its hard to say that about a lot of the national leaders. I think Trump drew on this strain of thought to win, and we are now seeing that the post-national globalists in the Deep State (ironically cashing checks written by the nation they disdain) have a whole lot more stroke than a mere elected official.
He is indeed a competent shitbag autocrat that has the well-being of his own people somewhere on his list of priorities; it may not be number 1 or even number 5 but at least it’s on there. Most Western leaders for the past decade (or more) don’t have it on the list at all so I think to many Westerners, that low bar is enough to launch him into “great and admirable leader!” territory.
“competent shitbag autocrat that has the well-being of his own people somewhere on his list of priorities”
The only acceptable praise of Putin
Do I get to pick the Russian for my contribution to the effort?
Get in line I already picked Anna Chapman
To paraphrase/steal one from another commenter a while back, she’s hot from age 19-29, then she turns into farm equipment.
?
What about breeding stock?
I’ve decided that Trump is Chaotic Neutral. He has no real plan other than to upset apple carts and look for opportunities to profit.
Perhaps these particular apple carts needed to be upset before any positive reform can happen. If anything, I look at Trump as an optimistic first step toward actually draining the swamp.
This whole clusterfuck finally has my Republican friends realizing that all they have been voting for is the better-dressed wing of the democrat party. For that, I am grateful to The Donald.
Oh, and for the FLOTUS.
I’ve decided that Trump is Chaotic
Neutral. He has no real planother than to upset apple carts and look for opportunities to profit.My version.
He has no real plan
This is the only plan I endorse.
“Non-interventionists of every stripe from libertarians to paleo conservatives to standard anti-war types have had their dreams dashed this past week after the president announced a troop surge in Afghanistan.”
I’m not sure we’ll be out of Afghanistan any sooner than we’ll be out of Germany, Italy, Japan, the Philippines, or Korea, but I’m not sure that means any particular President that didn’t but out of those places is pro-interventionist.
I maintain that it is extremely difficult for Americans to give back territory after American troops on the ground have died fighting there. It’s a cultural thing, tied up in Christianity, hero worship, patriotism, and other things that are also good and holy. That’s one of the reasons why we should be reluctant to deploy ground troops. It is rare for American troops to die on the ground–and then our military just picking up and leaving.
This is why the Weinberger/Powell doctrine was so specific about there being an exit plan before you go in, and the engagements we bailed on either took a tremendous amount of willpower (Reagan bugging out of Lebanon) or were planned to be short engagements from the beginning (like Bush the Greater’s adventure in Panama). Meanwhile, do you think of Reagan or Bush Sr. as anti-interventionist? You probably should!
Who else purposely worked to avoid conflicts specifically because they wanted to avoid the aftermath of intervention. What’s more anti-intervention than Bush Sr. deciding not to depose Saddam Hussein and occupy Iraq in 1991? What’s more anti-interventionist than Bush deciding that Somalia simply wasn’t worth it? He made that call twice! What’s more anti-interventionist than Reagan deciding that fighting a war in Lebanon simply wasn’t worth the cost? Yes, both of them also initiated interventions (Grenada and Panama), but they avoided occupations. Even Obama did the right thing in Libya–by not putting any troops on the ground.
That’s what anti-intervention means to me. Anti-intervention doesn’t mean capitulating to our enemies, abandoning our allies, or compromising on American security. Anti-intervention means avoiding elective wars in the first place because the consequences of intervention are likely to draw us into taking responsibility for the security of a region, when doing so doesn’t enhance the security of the United States and doesn’t represent our long term interests.
If we’d won in Vietnam, we’d still be there. I don’t know what security interests that would serve, but we wouldn’t have let that stop us from securing a country where 50,000 of our GIs died. Nobody wants to be the President who leaves–because that says our troops died for nothing. And sacrificing our sacred, patriotic troops for nothing is the worst possible sin. The best we can reasonably hope for from a new president is that he won’t start any new wars that don’t make sense.
Do you remember Obama’s red line? That’s the opposite of anti-intervention.
Donald Trump campaigning on leaving ISIS in Syria to Russia and its allies to solve is what real anti-intervention looks like. I’m not thrilled about Trump doubling down in Afghanistan either, but that’s to be expected. In our culture, highly influenced by Christianity, a hero is someone who sacrifices himself for others. They fight for our freedom!!! How many times have you heard that? If a hero is someone who (like Jesus) sacrifices himself for others, then is there any villain more villainous than someone who’s sacrificed our heroic troops for nothing? No president wants to open himself up to that kind of criticism by pulling out of a country where our troops died on the ground.
The best we can reasonably hope for is a president who will avoid future conflicts. Trump has actively worked to avoid us getting involved directly in the Syrian civil war/revolution whatever you want to call it. And he deserves credit for that.
We avoided getting involved in Syria during the Obama administration over Obama’s red line objections. Hillary Clinton certainly couldn’t have/wouldn’t have worked with Putin to get us out of Syria–Trump is working with Putin on that over Hillary Clinton’s objections and charges of treason. John McCain and the neocons have sought to break up Trump’s coordination with Putin on Syria–since before Trump was inaugurated. Trump has fought to keep us out of Syria and paid a political price for doing so–and he deserves credit for that.
Meanwhile, the limited ceasefire Trump negotiated with Putin has been holding for two months now. As all sides in Syria continue to focus on stamping out what little is left of ISIS, let’s hope Trump’s ceasefire holds and spreads. Avoiding American involvement in that war can only be in the interests of American security–and non-intervention.
He is a mixed bag so far. Better than the alternatives in 2016, with the exception of Jill Stein (only with regards to foreign policy)
Avoiding our direct involvement in Syria isn’t a mixed bag. It’s a deliberate strategy, for which Trump has paid a political price.
I should add that cozying up with authoritarians like Pinochet and Putin didn’t just happen by accident either. That strategy is often the alternative to direct intervention. That can be what non-intervention looks like.
“I should add that cozying up with authoritarians like Pinochet and Putin didn’t just happen by accident either. That strategy is often the alternative to direct intervention.”
I agree. The height of statesmanship is good relations- even with shitbags
+1 our son-of-a-bitch
I thought it had been decided that the best ways to deal with shitbags were:
1. Fancy summits with reset buttons.
2. Going back on our word when they disarm and helping assassinate them.
3. Sending them planeloads of cash in the dark of night.
Anything else is obvious evidence of collusion with them to destroy our country.
+1 red line
Sloopy gets it. To quote Neidermayer, “Worthless and Weak!” That’s Obama in a clam shell.
I think the claims of ‘gullible’ are a bit much, because I find most non-interventionist support getting thrown behind Trump, outside of the true Trumpkins, is due merely to his contrast to one Hillary Clinton, who spent the election talking about how she’d shoot down planes of a nuclear armed nation and has a long history of supporting very negative foreign interventions. The reality is that, unless Trump directly and significantly attacks a foreign power (with ‘boots on the ground’) he’ll still be the superior choice to Clinton, who seemed to be profoundly insecure about her position and viewed military action as a way to appear ‘tough’.
That’s not to say that Trump isn’t responsive to the same forces, there’s a reason why the only real bipartisan approval he’s received from the elites is when he blew up an airfield. Trump’s a populist, but non-interventionists are not exactly his core base. Some Trumpkins are interested in minimalized conflict, but overwhelmingly the American people don’t mind a little military empire so long as they don’t have to pay for it in blood/taxes too much.
Cue Sealy’s speech.
So you agree with my thesis.
Somewhat, but a smart ‘non-interventionist’ would never expect some kind of massive change in regards to U.S. policy because of Trump, just the potential for less extremely stupid big mistakes. He’s pure ‘lesser of two evils’, and I always expected that his military foreign policy would be similar to Obama’s (i.e. sticking your nose just slightly into various conflicts for no good reason and never committing anything substantial out of fear of DA POLLZ) without the major tonedeaf fuckups (i.e. Libya, initially propping up the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt).
I maintain there is no such thing as a “non-interventionist” in actual practice.
and it doesn’t even work on paper as a foreign relations theory.
(insert standard argument made 1000 times, and consequent Francisco yelling at me)
Ah, the Brink Lindsey take on foreign policy
I only know Brink Lindsey for being an asshole in different respects, and have no idea what sort of FP arguments he might make.
I meant it jokingly. Brink Lindsey has supported every single American intervention since the first Gulf War. He calls himself a neoconservative libertarian
No, that’s not remotely where i’m coming from.
I also don’t think “non-interventionism” is a theory (its not one, but pretending it is) most likely to prevent actual war
e.g. the strictest non-interventionists have posited that the US should never have dared to blockade the arrival of nuclear weapons to the shores of cuba. doing so was a de-facto violation of their rights
Are bloody, high-cost wars of defensive retribution really far more practical than pre-emptive intervention? because i’m not sure nuclear-armed cuba had any endgame other than “we erase them from the map”
there are many, many problems with the idea of “non-intervention” as a fr theory. Mainly because the theory, to be valid, has to apply to everyone involved in any dynamic. Its not a way to explain other people’s behaviors, or to rationalize how competing interests resolve themselves. its basically international-relations ‘solipsism’
I meant it jokingly.
I also think that there are variants of non-interventionism. There is the kind pushed by Jill Stein (opposition to all wars and interventions and cooperate through international organizations), the one pushed by Pat Buchanan (no conflicts unless are interests are directly impacted and no international organizations), the kind pushed by Glenn Greenwald (all conflict benefits the deep state and only if we are attacked should we respond, if even then). It is a general aversion away from unnecessary conflict. It is no less ludicrous than liberal internationalism (which calls for conflict for humanitarian reasons). There is no single thought with any of these dispositions and they can often disagree among themselves. The overall objective of non-interventionism is to not engage in empire building and to focus our international efforts in a realpolitik manner, for the most part.
which is a roundabout way of saying, “there isn’t any single coherent one”
you’re basically agreeing that it isn’t actually a working IR theory, and its just some loosely defined guidelines which people of wildly different political stripes cling to because they seem least-offensive.
its strange way to say on one hand that you oppose empire building….
….and yet international efforts should be engaged in a realpolitik manner… which naturally requires you to pursue maximizing your own national interests at all times. Which is it? Because being successful @ the latter tends to mean stuff like, “expanding your influence to all areas” which eventually comes to be described as “empire”
either you have some pre-emptive constraints on pursuit of national interests, or you don’t. If you do, you have to define them and explain why those constraints produce better outcomes not just for you, but everyone else as well.
*The term ’empire’ tends to be treated as though it means ‘the powerful extracting resources from the weak’ – when in fact it really actually only characterizes the existence of national influence, even when used beneficently or neutrally. e.g. American ‘military hegemony’ is defacto ’empire’. Unless you’re planning to disarm the US unilaterally, i’m not sure what being ‘against empire’ really means.
There is no contradiction between realpolitik and non-interventionism. In fact they are complementary. Rather than digging into the theory, a better question is do you believe that America’s current foreign policy is too interventionist?
I actually pointed one out – that rational (and successful) pursuit of self-interests taken to logical extremes results in ’empire’ which you claim to oppose.
I don’t believe either “interventionist” or “non-interventionist” have even been defined, so it would be hard to apply terms.
as a realist, i have argued that every single US military action since 2001 (with the exception of the initial invasion of afghanistan, which in my opinion should have ended with Tora Bora) has been a waste of resources and counter-productive to the ultimate goal of reducing any domestic terror-threat.
You’ll note that’s an argument which requires me to articulate the goal and whether i think those actions served it. I could further add whether or not i think the military is any good at actually pursuing that goal (*sort of), or whether there are better ways to go about it. Those argument presume an interest (defending the US against terror) and then measure the methods for achieving that interest.
If i said ‘these things were bad because they were ‘interventionist‘…. then i’d be arguing that we should not have done those things EVEN IF THEY WERE WILDLY SUCCESSFUL in accomplishing their goals.
i personally think the non-interventionist argument – which pretends that action is de-facto wrong – is a shittier way to actually prevent military action than arguing that action will not accomplish the desired goals.
Would it be accurate to say that you believe everyone is a practical interventionist given enough provocation or incentive? In other words, the threshold for intervention may be higher or lower for various people, but it’s never infinitely high, if that makes sense?
When you’re broke and have no capacity to wage war, the threshold is infinitely high.
Our interventionism is in no small part attributable to our relative riches.
Trade itself is a form of indirect interventionism. It affects societies in ways that can either pull them into your sphere or cause them to distance themselves. In that sense libertarians are not non-interventionists either.
Interventionism suggests a nationally coordinated action. If the government subsidizes industrial exports, then yes, that is interventionism. If independent parties are trading amongst themselves with no such support, then it is not.
I import product from Korea. I do not consider myself to be intervening in their national affairs.
‘Independent parties’ rarely lack the support of the state when it comes to influencing foreign markets if it benefits the state itself. U.S.-China relations are rife with it, for example.
There’s a reason why restrictionism became a major influence on economics in Latin American countries, and it wasn’t because independent parties were trading without state influence.
There’s a difference in being broke and being unable to wage war. Rarely do they go hand in hand, barring total social breakdown (Somalia/Yemen).
Many wars were fought because a nation was broke but were still capable of waging war to raid natural resources.
Saw a fascinating doc once (name is long gone) about Nazi Germany’s strenuous efforts to capture the gold reserves of the countries it invaded, and the efforts those countries took to keep them out of the Nazi’s hands. The German state went to war in part because it was broke. A lot of the anti-Jewish stuff they did started with (and, ended with) the confiscation of Jewish assets (“because that’s where the money was”).
+1 vault full of (((gold)))
+1 Prolog to Kelly’s Heroes.
I’m a realist.
I think the people who think they’re “non-interventionists” are really in most cases just ‘defensive realists’ with an ever-fluctuating range of narrower/wider arbitrarily&contextually-defined definitions of what constitutes our ‘interests’
e.g. Just Say’n said above:
what is this concern w/ “costs”? if you’re a non-interventionist, its a rule; ‘intervention’ (however defined) is de-facto wrong even if it costs nothing and benefits a nation immensely.
If you even start talking about ‘costs’, you’re just arguing that these specific actions are not in our national interests, and are making a realist case.
I just meant that cost is one of many topics we should engage with regards to foreign policy. I go on in the article to criticize Gary Johnson who equated reducing the cost of the military with being a non-interventionist. Interventionism corrupts the moral soul of a nation- which is the greatest cost of such a foreign policy
a very strange idea, especially coming from libertarians. Where exactly is this ‘soul’, and how do you measure it?
i thought you said above there are many flavors of non-interventionism? one one hand, you seem to think its very clear and strict about what it is, and on the other hand, you don’t.
There is morality and immorality in the world, based upon my own beliefs. I am not aware that I must hang my own personal morals at the door when I enter the libertarian club. I don’t believe that law is or should be the expression of that morality, but when a country kills with my money, it is just to denounce such actions as immoral.
There are different flavors of non-interventionism, but Johnson was very much an interventionist.
If Gilmore is a realist, as I am, he recognizes the state as an inherent institution of violence in an anarchistic world order where the strongest thrive. The idea of such an entity having a ‘soul’ is frankly a joke if you accept those premises.
I, for one, hope nation-states do have souls.
Because without a soul, there is nothing to punish in the afterlife.
I would never suggest that a state has a soul. A state is a man made institution. When I say ‘nation’ I mean the people that live within an area with a shared culture and identity.
I am curious how your personal morals became synonymous with “the soul of the nation”
no one denied you a personal moral perspective; its when you suggested that this (still undefined) moral-perspective should be a guideline for international relations that things got a little confused.
fwiw, the 3 other very-popular theories of foreign relations which have a strong “moral” component? include:
Neoconservatism
Wilsonianism, and its stepchild Humanitarian Interventionism
– which are each variants on “America has a moral duty as a superpower to either a) oppose and undermine govts that are not western-style democracies”, and/or b) function as “world police” to ensure suffering around the world is minimized
history shows that the application of “morality” to international relations has a spotty track record, which is often far more warlike than a more narrow conception of ‘pursuit of self-interest’…which, in my opinion, is ‘most moral’ in practice, despite never even pretending to any moral-superiority
fwiw, i don’t think Johnson was an ‘interventionist’ for the same reasons i don’t think ‘non-interventionists’ exist in practice.
Whenever you are engaged in killing people (war) it is impossible to not ascribe moral judgement on the action. Is indiscriminately droning people from the sky moral? No, I would say. Is arming groups that participate in genocide so that your regional ally can benefit by his opponent being weakened moral? No, I would say.
I don’t see how any of this undercuts a non-interventionist position or how it is even wrong to hold these opinions. Forcing people to financially fund immoral actions and then allowing them to ignore their own complicity in these adventures, is fostering an immoral society. One where the life of individuals is disparaged and the greater goal trumpeted as the ultimate justification.
The only kind of war that I support would be ‘Just War Theory’ as explained through Catholic teaching. But, I am also pragmatic and realize that the world is imperfect. Any reduction in adventurism is beneficial.
Do you believe that the US has a interventionist foreign policy as it stands? Should the US be droning wedding parties in Pakistan or arming ISIS in Syria so Assad can be toppled? Is your opinion formed, at least in part, by morality?
certainly. And during more-christian times, nothing could have been more-moral than liberating heathen countries from their own godlessness by sending swaths of their populations to early graves.
I think you fail to appreciate how “morality” is a far more fluid, relativistic, unreliable benchmark for predicting human behavior than ‘self interest’. “morality” has excused far more cruelty than it has ever prevented.
I couldn’t disagree more. Morality is inflexible and has changed little from the days of the Stoics. You confuse ‘God and the State’. They are not one in the same. And churches, in the past, for their own survival, have authorized immoral actions at the behest of state actors.
Churches, are just as infallible as man.
“Neoconservative ideology stresses that while free markets do provide material goods in an efficient way, they lack the moral guidance human beings need to fulfill their needs.”
You know, they’re called “neo”conservatives because they’re new to conservatism. They used to be Marxists–and it shows.
That part of that quoted statement could also be said about progressives.
I maintain that markets actually do reflect the morality of the individuals who participate in them. This is why you’ll see corporations advertise themselves as being socially responsible, etc. This is why some people will pay a premium for a hybrid version of a car over what they could possibly save in gas mileage over the standard version of the car. This is why people will actually give money to various charities, and charities compete with each other for donations. The idea that markets are bereft of morals is all tied to one primary misconception.
Market forces are people making choices.
How can people making choices be bereft of moral implications of those choices?
When people shop at Wal*Mart to save money, regardless of the damage Wal*Mart does to “living wages”, local mom and pop stores, etc., it is not because the people who shop there are without morality. It’s because their morality is different from what progressives, neocons, and Marxists want them to be.
When you keep asking questions using terms that i argue “don’t actually mean anything“, you’re not likely to get helpful answers.
I’d argue the US has a shitty foreign policy partly because of a mix of self-righteous morality, and technocratic hubris
I personally think trying to formulate any foreign policy ex-nihilo from arbitary ‘first principles’ rather than a careful evaluation of the status quo and our existing opportunities and threats? …
… is insane, and most likely to end in unnecessary violence and wasted resources.
I should probably add my contention that rights, like market forces” are also choices. Our rights are naturally choices because they arise as an aspect of our agency–our ability to make choices.
There is no moral component to asteroid striking the earth and killing the dinosaurs because asteroids don’t make choices.
People, however, do make choices, and the fact that there are moral implications of those choices cannot be separated from agency–the ability to make a choice. When we’re talking about rights, we’re also talking about choices. When I have “a right”, what I mean is that I get to make a choice. Violating someone’s rights is violating someone’s rightful ability to make a choice for themselves. “Property”, even, means I get to choose how something is used, who gets to use it, etc.
Point being, anything that aggregates the choices of all participants must be reflective of the choices made. Choices cannot be made without having moral implications associated with them, and, hence, a market must be an aggregator of moral implications.
The neocons get it wrong from the very beginning if they don’t understand that market forces are people making choices. Once that is understood, suggesting that markets don’t have moral components associated with them is asinine. It might be understandable if they were saying that people’s agency AKA their “ability to make choices” should be protected by government, but that’s not what they’re talking about. They’re talking about using the government to impose morality on the market–or other people’s choices.
Maybe, you can write an article explaining your position, Gilmore. Everything I say you seem to dismiss as not consistent with what you have decided non-interventionism is. More or less, it seems that your primary argument is that you don’t seem to like the terms being used.
yes, and i think i sometimes assume that everyone has suffered through the previous 100 times i’ve previously made the same argument.
the entire “intervention/non-intervention” thing is a false dichotomy which is mostly a language specific to libertarians and very few others. Its too-vague, and too problem-ridden to be treated seriously by people who are better-steeped in foreign relations concepts. I personally think there are better ways for Libertarians to articulate similar ideas.
shorter answer to your question: yes, more or less.
basically, all intl relations are power imbalances. any power imbalance has a degree of coercion implied in relations. ‘diplomacy is war by other means’, etc.
i can imagine someone defining ‘intervention’ very narrowly, and saying, “well its only expeditionary warfare”. Which is, again, just to say, “Defensive realist”. a narrow definitions of our interests to ‘homeland security’ and little else. What if the space-commies invade Canada? Are we forced to remain ‘neutral’? well, then its close enough to the homeland that we can expand our definitions of interests to include ‘immediately neighboring allies’.*
(*which sort of ignores why our neighbors are our allies in the first place, but that’s opening a whole different can of worms)
I’ve talked about this thing a million times, but the flaw i see in libertarian thinking is taking the “just leave me alone i leave you alone”-ism of libertarianism, which works perfectly well in the context of a *state which provides a stable independent arbitrating mechanism for violators*…
… but doesn’t function at all in the anarchic conditions of international affairs, where there is absolutely no ‘super-state’ playing referee. In international affairs, might makes right. Stronger nations define the ‘rules’ for weaker ones. The UN exists as a buffer to make that reality seem less obvious, and to provide a mechanism for smaller states to gang up and annoy bigger ones without the bigger ones just crushing them like ants. But there’s a reason the things like the G20 and the UN Security Council aren’t some open-forum where anyone pretends to care what the smallfry think.
Wow, I think I’ve finally found a use for the IR Theory classes I took in college years ago. You’re describing structural realism and Just Say’n seems to be coming from a classical realist perspective.
not really
contra people who don’t really get it – saying that morality should not be the guiding principle in IR doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter. it just comes second to questions of a) ‘defining interests’ and b) ‘evaluating means of achieving them’. If you’re making moral arguments completely absent consideration of A+B, you’re not a realist at all.
Tales of vhyrus the hurricane fighter part 5: final prep is complete and we will be on the road shortly. I’m actually expecting the lower keys to take a much lighter hit than originally anticipated which means this may have all been a lot of work for nothing. The tricky part now is finding a storage place that can take our stuff and getting the uhaul back to ft Lauderdale in time.
Consider it insurance. You hope to not need it, but you pay the damn bill anyway.
Ironically this house is not insured
Yeah, but the work is almost like a ritual that drives the danger away. If you hadn’t done it, the hurricane would be a direct hit.
I understand why hurricanes are so historically feared. Were 48 hours from major landfall and the weather is perfect. You would never know something was coming.
Have the birds left?
Do they?
Nope. They’re here
Wait until it’s <3 hours out and look in the direction it's coming from. You will just see a wall of black clouds. Think the worst thunderstorm you've seen and imagine it stretching across the whole horizon. It's awe inspiring in a "fear of G-d" kind of way.
Anecdote time!
Many moons ago, before the world wide web, before consumer cellphones, I was on a camping trip on the eastern coast of the US.
Unbeknownst to us, a hurricane was coming. I told my fellow campers earlier in the day that it felt like a storm was coming, but that was followed soon after by a smattering of rain so I was roundly mocked. I was walking to a shower facility in a field that was many hundreds of yards across. I saw the clouds rapidly roll across the sky, very much like the special effects from a Spielberg movie. I began to freak out. Then, far in the distance I saw the trees at the edge of the field begin to bend in half. I turned and ran. I think I got about three steps before a solid wall of wind and gravel slammed into me, Two seconds later was the deluge. Tents lept into the air like birds, It was not however strong enough to pick up the picnic tables we “sheltered” under.
All of the exotic birds on Richard Branson’s island got pretty fucked up.
As god as my witness, I thought flamingos could fly.
They will, Playa, believe me, they will.
“exotic birds”
That’s ok, there are plenty more swimsuit models to replace them.
The sound of one hand fapping rings across the meadow, through the woods and onto Granny’s house. Gud’un!
Ask yourself this question: Why didn’t the military want us to know that Pat Tillman died . . . for no good reason?
Does the suggestion that Pat Tillman died for no good reason turn your stomach like it does mine?
If so, why?
So you are saying you don’t support our troops, Ken?
Most people I know are fine with the wars as long as their guy is in charge. Tillman is a distant memory for these people. The military needs to keep selling, just like any other industry.
It’s spectacularly fucked up.
What sells the military is that our soldiers are heroes in waiting–even more so for being volunteers these days. When I find out that there’s a veteran of a war I opposed in the room, I shut the fuck up about my opposition. It’s out of respect. If he wants to know my opinion of the Iraq War (doubtful), he’ll ask me. But I’d hate for anyone to think that my opinion of the people who volunteered to fight after 9/11 was somehow subject to my views on the merits of the Iraq War. Not to mention that morale is a serious factor in wartime. The Taliban and Al Qaeda want our troops to be demoralized, and I ain’t about to do our enemies’ dirty work for them.
All this is to say that I think of guys like Pat Tillman as heroes, myself. My support for the military today is about our soldiers volunteering to fight our enemies and defend the Constitution. If I find out those troops have been put in harm’s way for no good reason, it makes me upset. I think that’s probably a general rule.
Adam Smith’s “Theory of Moral Sentiments” (1759) didn’t catch on like “Wealth of Nations” (1776) because Wealth of Nations was more predicated on economics and, thus, its conclusions were easier to quantify. Economic relationships are about the kinds of choices people make in various circumstances–and they’re easier to quantify with trade balances, currency trading, price fluctuations, etc. But there are other kinds of relationships like that which are harder to quantify because they aren’t necessarily reflected in something that’s priced out. The reaction to pulling out of another country after soldiers have died there is probably one of them.
We may never completely pull out of Korea because the security relationships that have grown around our presence there are the foundation of that region’s security. Regardless, we’ll never pull out so long as there are still Americans who remember American soldiers who fought and died there. To whatever extent I care about France being free, it isn’t entirely unrelated to the Americans who died at Normandy and elsewhere. I can generally overcome those feelz, but they can be really powerful. I might not be like most people that way. Whenever I hear about some American soldier killed in Afghanistan, in my head, I think about Pat Tillman and I think about Kwais.
Iraq wasn’t a war of self-defense, but Afghanistan was. Regardless, once Americans die on the ground there, it isn’t just whether the Iraq War was right or wrong anymore; it’s also about the Americans who died and were wounded there. The latter is probably even more important than the former. Moreover, I find the argument that we shouldn’t lose any more precious American troops there to be the most persuasive argument for ending a war. That seems to be the one thing that makes people get past all the lives that have already been lost. If they can’t bring themselves to see the Pat Tillmans as sunk costs–because that’s too awful an idea to ponder–then sometimes you can get to them by talking about how we shouldn’t lose any more soldiers.
Well said.
The Rangers don’t like anything that punctures their image. We knew it was friendly fire accident right away.
Just out of curiousity, how did you know? Inside info? They didn’t release many details until years later.
The reason they don’t like their image punctured is for a number of reasons, but among them, Pat Tillman stuck out because he gave up so much to join the military. It made people think, “Wow, here’s a guy that sacrifices so much–to do something I could go down the recruiting center and join myself!”
Dying for no good reason is a total betrayal of that.
Christianity itself is the attempt to rationalize the death of Jesus of Nazareth. He was a good man. He couldn’t have been for nothing! That’s just . . . unacceptable.
Pat Tillman was like that, too. Nobody wants to think that good men are sacrificed for no good reason. That makes their stomachs churn.
Ahem.
I’m sorry, but in defense of all my fellow petty men I must express my displeasure with this assertion. Failed marriage should by no means be a measure of one’s morality or principle. It often simply means that you had a shitty marriage. One can most certainly be divorced (and petty!), yet still maintain exceptional fortitude.
You’re right. I gave the wrong implication there. I meant to say that he is fickle, which is not true of most people that have been remarried. I should have not included that descriptor.
Three marriages shows a certain level of persistence.
Or just a desire for a newer model…
+1 Malania
That’s good stuff
For men, romance is about the sense of conquest and the excitement of being with a new woman. For women, romance is about the feeling of being pursued and desired. When men leave their wives for a newer model, they are leaving for romantic reasons. I am not going to defend that. Romance is shallow. You can’t build a marriage around romance. It is a part of it but there has to be more. Society realizes that when it comes to men. Any man who marries a woman because she is hot and good in bed and nothing else is destined to be disappointed because no woman stays hot forever and no matter how good in bed she is, it will eventually get routine.
What I find interesting is the double standard that is applied to women. Women who leave their husbands for romantic reasons, because they want to feel desired and excited again, are celebrated in books and movies. Yet the woman who leaves her husband searching for excitement and the feeling of being desired is just as foolish and shallow as the man who leaves his wife for a newer model.
Any man who marries a woman because she is hot and good in bed and nothing else is destined to be disappointed because no woman stays hot forever and no matter how good in bed she is, it will eventually get routine.
Absolutely. I’ve been watching a couple I know slowly crater their marriage. She’s smoking hot, but that’s pretty much it. Doesn’t work, never has. He’s a very successful dude, but works all the time. She’s seeing another dude (married) and I suspect he’s got some on the side as well.
Marriage is tough enough without that shit.
People often don’t realize that romance is fake. Romance is nothing but a set of roles that people play that allows them to get over the awkwardness of being with the opposite sex. But it is a role. No one is in their regular life the way they are on a date. But you can’t act all of the time. Eventually, you need to be able to relax and be who you are. And that is not romantic. But you can’t base a life on acting. No one can pretend to be something they are not all of the time. And trying to do so will just make that person feel unappreciated and resentful. Romance is a part of marriage. Sometimes you do need to assume the role and go back to the days of dating. But it can’t be the basis of marriage or at least a marriage that lasts.
Is the dude she seeing you? Cause if so *high five*!
As they say, no matter how hot she is, somewhere there’s a guy getting sick of her shit.
I think the reason I was rather bad at dating but have had an awesome marriage is that I didn’t play the game when I dated. I’ve never had any interest in being anything other than myself, so I never played any kind of role. Led to a lot of unsuccessful dates, but when I found the girl who liked me for who I was, we got hitched and have never looked back. We’re best friends as well as husband and wife. It makes all the difference.
Is the dude she seeing you? Cause if so *high five*!
Christ, no. I’m perfectly fine with the lovely Mrs. Tundra. Believe me, when you outkick your coverage, you tread carefully.
Success in marriage means you eventually find yourself having sex with a 60-year-old grandmother. And they can’t all be Helen Mirren.
Or changing an 85 year-old’s diapers. *shudders*
This exactly why I am determined to utterly destroy every copy of Ivanhoe one I rise to power. That novel is at the root of the destruction of western society. It’s the snowball that started rolling down the mountain and became an avalanche.
Marriage was until recently always about the practical. Romance may have helped determine who you married, but you didn’t get married because of romantic notions. Losing sight of that and deciding that life and marriage was about romance and the happily ever after has been the cause of many of our problems.
You had your wife to raise the kids and take care of practical matters, then you got romance with your mistress(es).
If women hadn’t developed the annoying habit of no longer accepting double standards, I would be all for going back to that Q. But only if it just applies to me. No wife sharing. Sadly, I don’t think it would work that way.
You get one free pass, after that, you have to assume that you’re part of the problem.
It wasn’t even meant as a criticism so much as a gentle ribbing. Excellent article!
Thanks
It is possible to be principled about some things and not about other things. Everyone has their flaws and weaknesses. The fact that a man has a weakness for women and is disloyal to his wife, does not necessarily mean he won’t act with great honor in other areas of his life. There are too many examples of such men in history to list here.
One of the dumber things I have heard said about Trump is Jonah Goldberg’s claim that Trump’s presidency will end badly for him and the country because Trump has a bad character and “character is destiny”. I honestly don’t understand how anyone over the age of 12 could believe such a thing. History shows time and again how people with fairly nasty personal characters have risen to the occasion to do great things and people with wonderful personal characters have proven to be cowards and turncoats. Character is a lot of things but it sure as hell isn’t destiny. Saying it is is just a fancy way of saying “good guys always win in the end”. It amazes me that Goldberg could be that shallow and stupid. But he really is. He honestly believes that.
In hindsight, it appears that the only moral vote a non-interventionist could have made in the 2016 election was to either vote for Jill Stein or abstain.
Could one be a non-interventionist but consider it a far lesser priority than other issues?
For me at least, preserving 2nd A rights, dismantling Obamacare, and massive tax reform are far greater issues.
Of course. For me, I tend to agree with the Mises people that ‘war is not AN issue- it is THE issue’. Other people are sympathetic to a non-interventionist foreign policy, but they prioritize other issues, of course. This is one of the things that separates the Koch-type libertarian groups from the Mises people. This may be due to the fact that the Mises people are rooted in the Old Right (Rothbard was a big Taft supporter back in the day), while the Koch-type groups were born out of the Goldwater movement, generally (especially the Libertarian Party which was founded after a group of Young American for Freedom members burned their draft cards at a conference and were promptly expelled from the organization, which led Buckley to remark “organizing libertarians is like herding cats”).
That’s interesting, thanks for the historical background. Although, based on what’s coming out of Reason these days, I’m not sure the Koch groups have any standing to call themselves libertarians anymore.
For me, I tend to agree with the Mises people that ‘war is not AN issue- it is THE issue’
Now you know how some of us pro-lifers feel about the LP and why we can’t pull the lever for them…ever.
From my understanding (and this may have changed) the LP platform left abortion up to the candidate to decide. I may be wrong. Either way, being a Catholic, it is understood where my sympathies lie with regards to that issue
The national party platform has been pro-choice since 2000. They say the state has no business involving itself in the relationship with a woman and her doctor. As far as I’m concerned, that’s a deal-breaker.
Either way, being a Catholic, it is understood where my sympathies lie with regards to that issue.
Not in this day and age. I know as many catholic politicians that are ardently pro-choice (Pelosi, Cuomo, Kerry, Durbin, Dodd, etc) as I do that are pro-life (Manchin, Peterson and the 14 Dems that got ran out of office in 2010 for not supporting the O-care abortion funding).
I see that in the same way I see a lot of Reform Jews on the subject of Israel; they (IMO) are no longer Jewish, or at least not primarily so. They replaced their religion with progressive politics, they like to keep the cultural trappings of the religion but are not really faithful.
I sense an impending “No True Papist” thread …
I read that as “No True Rapist”
Opposition to abortion is a central tenant of the Catholic faith (it is literally in the Cathechism). While I don’t expect law to reflect morality, it is barbarism to suggest that there can never be any limits to abortion. Tim Kaine and Nancy Pelosi (etc.) are, by definition, cafeteria Catholics. Kaine’s own bishop said that he should no longer receive communion.
I’m not going that far. We all fall short of being perfect every day, whatever our beliefs.
I was just making an observation about my personal “single-issue”.
Trump has not as of yet started a new war. He inherited the North Korean problem. As far as the wars in Syria and Afghanistan, he is trying to win the wars in inherited. I don’t know that finishing up wars that you inherit rather than just walking away from them immediately, is necessarily interventionist. I think it is too early to tell. If it turns out that Trump just continues sending good money after bad and we are still involved in both places in 2020 or Trump intervenes in new places, then I think noninterventionists have a real complaint, though if he doesn’t get involved in any new wars, he would still be an improvement over Obama. If however, it is 2020 and we are out of Afghanistan and Syria or even one of the two and Trump hasn’t started any new interventions, then I think noninterventionists should be pleased. We can debate over which outcome is more likely, but I don’t think noninterventionists should write Trump off just yet.
We’ll see. I sure hope he’s asking the unpleasant questions and not accepting BS answers when he meets with the brass.
He seems to be in Afghanistan. Also, he has stopped the practice of the White House exercising tactical control over forces in the field. My sense is that he understands the proper role of a President at least.
Also, he has stopped the practice of the White House exercising tactical control over forces in the field.
This is important, for all too often people forget the proper roles of warfare. Objectives are for politicians, strategies are for generals, and tactics are for soldiers.
Except for Obamessiah. He was such a super-genius that he could simultaneously bring order to the chaos of the world and micromanage the movements of a single combat unit. Alas, we weren’t good enough and failed him.
Since when was Trump some sort of Raimondo-esque antiwar guy? He only ever suggested he was opposed to playing world police and nation building, not killing our enemies (and I do think he still consider the Taliban an enemy of the US). Basically, he averred the right-wing, post(/anti)-neocon view of military action.
And while his actions in Syria might have strayed from that, you haven’t actually heard about Syria in the news recently.
Excellent article Just Say’n. Trump has been disappointing on the foreign affairs angle of things, but not as bad as some said (no nuclear war with Russia… yet). I have a strong feeling that we will find that Trump will be about as interventionist as every other president. He seems to place a lot of respect with the military, and especially generals, who seem not to mind adventurism. I have to admit I’m getting more and more worried about the situation in North Korea, and am starting to think Trump isn’t the best person to deal with it.
The military has never been the driver behind US interventionism. It wasn’t the military that got us involved in Korea or Vietnam or Iraq. In each and every case, it was Congress. The cases of Vietnam and Iraq are particularly egregious. In both cases, Congress actively supported US involvement and voted by large majorities to authorize it only to immediately turn around and shamelessly blame the whole thing on the President once things didn’t go well. While Bush was definitely the driving force behind Iraq, he never would have gone had Congress not agreed. Despite the common myth otherwise, Johnson did not initially support going into Vietnam and was browbeaten into it by Congress.
J. William Fullbright is among the most dishonest and disreputable people ever to hold high office in this country. There was no more enthusiastic backer for full US involvement in Vietnam than Fullbright. Yet, by 1968, he was Senator Anti War and blamed the entire thing on Johnson and pretended he never supported the war. Fullbright was just the worst of many.
So, if you are worried about the US getting into wars, you need to worry about Congress. They are the problem. The military never drives much of any policy.
I don’t remember Fulbright ever having apologized either. Nothing worse than a flip flopper who doesn’t admit to his previous errors. I wonder if any MSM reporter ever thinks to ask why? E.g. don’t recall any ever asking why Obama changed his stance on gay marriage.
Ooo, ooo, I know this one, it’s easy! What is, you don’t hold a flip-flopper accountable if they’re a Democrat?
Always is instructive to keep in mind what Congressional Dems were saying before the Iraq War
I am speaking specifically of the addition of McMaster, John Kelly, and Mattis to high levels of the Trump admin, also corresponds to his switch from very vocally being against intervention, to lobbing missiles at Syria and surging in Afghanistan. It also led to the loss of a lot of the people who were nominally non-interventionist (and often considered alt-right, like Bannon, et al.). I think congress will happily go for war fever, and they certainly enable the various undeclared wars we’re running, but the attitude of the president is maybe even more important now, as congress has all but relinquished their role in approving military action. I don’t think it is a coincidence that Trump has many military minds in positions to influence him and then a surge in Afghanistan is announced.
War gives congress a better opportunity for graft than anything else. It’s no wonder they love it so much.
“The military has never been the driver behind US interventionism.”
Yeah, generally agree, but the military did go out of their way to provoke the NVA response which led to the Gulf of Tonkin incident.
The Gulf of Tonkin incident was real. And to the extent the military “provoked it”, it was because they were ordered to do so by the Johnson Administration.
OT: If we really ever do get Glib swag, I think we just steal this.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K1JEOHY/ref=twister_B01K1JEHNA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Would wear.
Starting with this. Quite tasty.
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/33530/145771/
If I can get service, this is next.
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/287/2403/