IFLS! I love it so much in fact that I spent (wasted?) the years from age 5-29 pursuing higher education; finally culminating in a PhD in Physics. I can send you a copy of my thesis if you’re suffering from insomnia. This has nominally trained me to be a scientist. The purpose of obtaining a PhD in a hard science is not to learn a lot of facts, though I did do that (not that I can remember very many of them). No, the true purpose of an education in scientific research is to inculcate a certain mindset amenable to critical thinking and weighing of evidence. To retread an already tired cliché, it teaches you how to think. So why, you may ask yourself, would an over-educated Gen X failure with a PhD in Physics still believe in G-d? Aren’t all nominal scientists and educated people atheists? If you’ve built a life around obtaining evidence, why would you put faith in something for which there is no proof; even worse something that is likely unprovable, the true hobgoblin of the scientific mind? Well, my friends, wonder no more. Take another shot and join me on a wonderful journey in which we discuss the Question. The only Question that really matters.
Historical Approaches
Many people much smarter than I have tried to do the unlikely, prove the existence of G-d. Trying to even paraphrase the massive amount of work already done in this area over the course of human history would not only be impossible here, but it would be arrogant for a peon like myself to lecture as a layman. To that end, I will just put forth (extremely) brief summaries of some of the most well-known arguments.
The very concept of G-d is quite malleable and before even forming an argument, some basic understanding of what you’re arguing for needs to be established. I will be discussing a prototypical Western perception of G-d as a single, transcendent, metaphysically supreme being; the antecedent and origin of everything. This typically encompasses a being with omnipotence and omniscience and with some semblance of freedom of action and will. The trick is avoiding anthropomorphizing so I’ll try to be very general. I also won’t delve into the Trinity or other tricky, paradoxical concepts. I’m also not going to try and cross over between Abrahamic conceptions of G-d with those of deism, as I personally find many of the tenets from both to not be mutually exclusive.
The ontological argument is one of the most famous, basically positing that the existence of G-d is confirmed by the fact that the concept of G-d can be held. If such a concept can be held in the mind, even by a non-believer, then such a being must exist in reality. Descartes was a big fan of this theory and published it in several different ways arguing in favor of G-d’s existence. Kant, on the other hand, rejected this argument by saying that the ontological argument is actually encapsulating two separate entities, the concept of G-d and G-d Himself and the argument only addresses the former. Aquinas also rejected this argument for the reason that G-d *cannot* be conceived of, as He is, by His nature, unknowable to the mortal mind. Finally, strict empiricists hold that the argument is not an argument at all because there is no evidence either for or against such a claim.
Empirical arguments, of which Aquinas’ are the most famous, argue G-d’s existence from physically observable phenomena. The elegance of the laws of nature encompass one such argument; ie, it’s so improbable that Planck’s constant should be exactly what it is, and the fact that if it were just slightly different life could not exist as we know it, must imply the existence of a supreme being controlling it. Also considered an empirical argument is the unmoved mover argument. Arguing that tracing backward from effect to cause eventually reaches some initial effect for which no cause exists; therefore the only way that such an effect could happen is if it comes from some transcendent unmoved mover that puts into motion the machinery of existence.
What does this have to do with (((you))) and your pretentious way of writing His name?
First, the pretentiousness: carrying around my own cultural baggage dictates the writing of His name as G-d in English. This is homage to the “Adonai” placeholder in Jewish scripture. The unpronounceable tetragram is meant as a way of demonstrating G-d’s unknowable true nature. This is, in my opinion, a (possibly unintentional) refutation of the ontological argument; it basically agrees with Aquinas in a superficial way. To me, it’s a way of showing respect for that which is beyond our petty lives and meager understanding. I see it as a gesture of humility.
I’m no deep thinker. I love guns, titties, scotch and jalapeno poppers. I like to cogitate on these things from time to time, but I’m a mental midget in comparison to the likes of Aquinas, Hume, Nietzsche and Descartes. So what does this have to do with me? Well, I believe strongly in the Aristotelian imperative of living an examined life. To me, that implies at least some effort to tackle the Big Question, at least to my own satisfaction.
Get to the point.
Alright, jeez. Gimme a break. My belief in G-d’s existence doesn’t really break down to a rigorously structured argument a-la the classic thinkers. I have a few bread crumbs all emulsified and held together by the egg yolk of faith and meaning. First off, I do not ascribe to Pascal’s wager at all. I think that’s a coward’s way out. Stop playing the odds. Further, and related to my rejection of Pascal’s wager, I’m undecided on the existence of an afterlife, upon which Pascal’s wager hinges. I certainly believe we are immortal in that the coalesced energy that constitutes the matter of our bodies will not be destroyed, it will just change form in one way or another. By that same token, I think it’s pretty unlikely that when you croak you get transported to a beautiful garden filled with awesome food from Chili’s and unlimited copulation with underwear models of your particular gender preference. Still, I do believe in a soul. Modern cognitive science and neural network models seem to be on the verge of identifying how thoughts propagate in our brains. Similarly, we also know from incidences of brain injury that physical changes to the brain can have a profound impact on the mind. However, stealing from Stan in South Park, that explains the how and not the why. While such studies are fascinating and useful, they do not answer the pertinent question; where do the thoughts originate? Where is the unmoved mover in our own brains? To me, this is the image of Himself from which G-d made us. That is the spark of divinity in each of us, not, as some have argued, the crude orgasmic procreation. To me, the seat of free will, the ultimate gift given, is in that unmoved mover inside us.
Further, I posit that even if G-d did not exist, it would have been necessary for us to invent him. I have seen arguments that a functioning set of ethics could be constructed without appeal to G-d. This may be true in a strictly theoretical sense, but I have difficulty believing that it could work in practice. It can easily devolve into relativism and, ultimately, nihilism. Nietzsche struggled with this all his life. If G-d doesn’t exist, then what are the implications for ethical decision-making? Again, I’m not going to try, even if I could (which I can’t), and reinvent the wheel with Nietzsche’s arguments. Suffice it to say that I never found he could adequately overcome the handicap of not having G-d in trying to create a code of ethics. To put it simply, there must be an authority outside the realm of human debate when it comes to the actions of ultimate ethical import. Would anyone have taken Moses seriously if he came down from Mt. Sinai and said “Hey guys! I came up with these rules and you’ve gotta follow them. And some of them you’re not gonna like cause you’ll have to stop banging your buddy’s wife then stealing his money behind his back.” Let’s just say it carries a lot more weight to say “G-d is telling you to do this, not me.” How do we know Moses didn’t just write that stuff down on his own and pull a fast one? I don’t suppose we can know for sure. However, based on the fact that the rules given seem to work really well, and make intuitive sense to the overwhelming majority of people, that’s a pretty good start. If you’re not a Ten Commandments fan, you can always default back to the Golden Rule (also supposedly provided by G-d).
I can see you Glibs already, hunkered down in front of your computer, television in the background mellifluously serenading you with the latest episode of Game of Thrones, a large, mostly empty bottle of something precariously perched next to the computer. You’re thinking, “this guy hasn’t proven anything, he hasn’t even really argued anything! I came here expecting answers and he’s just given me pablum!” Well, I never claimed to have any answers or even an argument. It all, in the end, comes down to faith and how it applies to your individual life. To quote Dr. House, “there’s no conclusive science. My choice has no practical relevance to my life, I choose the outcome I find more comforting.” Dr. House chooses to believe that life isn’t a “test” and thus confirms his atheism. Dr. House’s conception of life (and the way in which much religion is sold) is that life doesn’t have meaning in and of itself; it’s just a staging area where, if you make the right decisions, once you shuffle from the mortal coil, you’ll be tapping Adriana Lima’s ass while scarfing an Awesome Blossom. I similarly choose to believe this is not a test but come to different conclusions. Rather than a test, it is a gift and I find it more comforting to believe that this gift was bestowed by some benevolent force rather than by a strictly random set of circumstances. One atom was set in motion, which precipitated down to pond scum on Earth which precipitated down to mammals and primates and eventually Adriana Lima. And G-d saw that she was good.
I can see you Glibs already, hunkered down in front of your computer, television in the background mellifluously serenading you with the latest episode of Game of Thrones, a large, mostly empty bottle of something precariously perched next to the computer. You’re thinking, “this guy hasn’t proven anything, he hasn’t even really argued anything! I came here expecting answers and he’s just given me pablum!”
I think by this point in the article, most of them have scrolled down to the comments. 😉
Seriously, I tend to be an agnostic, mostly because there seem to be no good answers to the question of what was there before the universe as we know it. I actually asked an astrophysicist once, and got pretty-sounding nonsense about the universe collapsing and the big bang process repeating itself. Why did it begin in the first place?
Addressing the how and not the why. The why may forever be beyond human comprehension, but I think at least trying to figure it out makes life quite a bit more interesting.
I’m going to get you and Lynchpin confused from now on.
This. And thanks for this article, it’s very good and great topic.
Ha! I actually read it and enjoyed it thoroughly, despite the unnervingly accurate depiction of myself there.
I guess I’ve gone from atheist to agnostic. I don’t give a lot of thought to this stuff, though, so there’s that. But I no longer look down on the bleevers so I think that’s an improvement. I don’t rail about God on my coins. Hell, I’m even getting comfortable with the argument that “if G-d did not exist, it would have been necessary for us to invent him”.
I’m nominally an atheist but I’m coming from the perspective that, lacking evidence to the contrary, I assume God doesn’t exist. I don’t think it’s impossible for God to exist, and I don’t think less of people who believe God exists, I just don’t want to be dishonest with myself or with other people about something that matters deeply to many people. Being raised Episcopalian I knew lots of people who showed up to church twice a year and that was the extent of their religious life. That’s fine, I suppose, but it just seems like it’s insulting to people who take it seriously.
I always read and enjoy Jewsday Tuesday, even as a nonbeliever.
Me, too. Once I let my confirmation biases go, I had to contend with headache-inducing seemingly-fundamental paradoxes and thought-loops having to do with thinking itself, definitions themselves, language itself, and realized that I can’t ever extricate myself from feeling humbly feckless in the face of those things. Water to a fish. I don’t even know what “God” means, I don’t think anyone as far as I’ve experienced has communicated a solid notion (maybe they have it themselves,—who can say?—but communicating it is a whole ‘nother matter), I don’t even know if it can be ‘well-formulated’ / precise / formal, so how can I pontificate at all? The dialectic will never be resolved, any more than Russell’s paradox can be resolved (I don’t think they’re analogous at all, just similarly futile to resolve—seemingly). Or can it? Always worth trying, but I’m not game. It hurts my head and causes me to feel aloof and detached—which causes me to feel depressed.
Er, that was me going from atheist to agnostic, but I can see it apply equally well to an experience of going from theist to agnostic.
You know, because of your name and avatar, I read every one of your posts in Butthead’s voice. It causes a weird mind-fuck effect when you post deep thought stuff like this.
That must take a while, with all the ‘uhh’s and ‘huh huh huh’s. I’m not even sure if I could imagine Butt-head saying most things outside of his standard lexicon. But I love that, and I hope to resemble the true Butt-head more and more.
I feel the overwhelming need to create a joke handle for Beavis and reply to every one of your posts with “Fire! Fire! …. Fire!”
It might influence a reader to start a real fire, garnering this site some unwanted attention from a certain prosecutor! :0 But maybe that’ll finally rid Glibs of that pesky Family-Friendly stamp.
That led to one of TV’s greatest moments. After the network put an end to Beavis’ obsession with fire, the boys were watching videos and Once in a Lifetime by Talking Heads came on.
Beavis excitedly exclaims, “Water! Water!…. heh-heh… Water!!”
Just a brilliant moment of inside baseball.
I confess to be agnostic also. How can you not be agnostic about it, it’s unverifiable as either true or false, it’s unknown. I’m pretty comfortable saying that bigfoot is a mythological creature, ok, but this goes a little deeper than that and is currently out of grasp.
STEVE SMITH SAY YOU GO AHEAD AND KEEP THINKING BIGFOOT MYTHICAL…
The cleverest thing Bigfoot ever did was to convince people he doesn’t exist.
That sounds a hell of a lot like a God of the Gaps type of argument. Which is something most theologians and atheists reject.
The basic argument is that because we don’t know what happened, God did it. It’s the equivalent of ‘A Wizard did it.’ The problem is that once scientists actually figure out what happened, then the notion of what God is responsible for gets pushed back. So let’s say that the String theory physicists get their act together and manage to prove the brane theory, then there goes God again. Or some Biologist manages to create a basic bacterium in the lab using only chemicals, that’s the Abiogenesis problem solved, so much for God’s intervention.
The other option is “because we don’t know what happened” nature did it.” When you don’t know what happened there’s only so many options to go to for explanation.
Also, a concept of god could be equivalent to a concept of nature. The entire concept of naturally occurring phenomena is just saying invisible forces that were set in motion for an unknown reason and led to a cause and effect we see now.
Oh, and thanks to the Glibs overlords for letting me use this forum as my personal brain toilet.
Coincidentally, Personal Brain Toilet is the name of my band.
Triangle virtuoso?
+1 Ed Grimley.
I’m working through Augustine’s City of God, which takes on many of these questions, and informs Aquinas’ theology (in part). He tackles the tough questions. What does it mean to be God? What characteristics must God embody? Why aren’t the gods of the Romans the actual God?
Also, I just finished listening to a whole chapter on erections.
I wouldn’t recommend starting with this one… Confessions is a much less complex (and long).
“much less complex (and long)”
But enough about the erections…
That is no euphemism!
If your erection is complex, you may want to see a doctor.
Where else on the internet can one find Tales of the Hat and Hair, links to women in need of a good chiropractic adjustment, news that almost nobody covers, the proclamations of Zardoz, the exclamations of Steve Smith, great recipes, and philosophical musings such as this one?
This is quickly becoming the best.website.ever.
I concur, glibs rule!
I approve of your avatar.
Thankee sai
Damn straight.
Damn, Q. That was really good.
Also, I never knew the reasoning behind spelling G-d that way. I’d seen it in older books I’ve read, but never got around to asking “why.” So thanks for that, too!
No prob. Back to your regularly scheduled boobs tomorrow.
Some of them tittays make Creation likely
But is it the tittays or your unfathomable appreciation for the tittays that is the real gift?
If a bra comes off in the forest and no one’s around to see it, is there a boner?
To put it another way, who is the more fortunate man, the one who loves tittays or the one who loves fat chicks?
I guess it depends since they’re not mutually exclusive; lots of fat chicks have got huge (if saggy) racks. My college roommate and I used to think that someone who was genuinely attracted to conventionally ugly girls would have the best life; much less competition and more gratitude. OTOH, I found, at least back then, that oftentimes the hottest girl in the bar wouldn’t get approached that much because all the guys were intimidated by her. Was I making a point?
If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life…
Though I disagree, I dated a girl who felt she wasn’t as good looking as me, and it led to a lot of friction in the relationship for no good reason.
The hot person/assole correlation can be pretty strong, FWIW.
No matter how hot she is – someone, somewhere is fed up with her shit.*
But yeah, I’ve had coworkers here in NYC that were very attractive, not crazy, and horny as hell who couldn’t get laid even if they were prepared to pay for dinner. If I wasn’t otherwise occupied, I would have been VERY glad to help them with their problem.
* said a wise man, here, last week
I dont know one way or the other. But, I do love reading about the History of Religion.
And I pray. Often. I just dont know why or to what.
I’m pretty much the opposite (aside from being interested in religious history). I believe in God, but I don’t pray. I feel prayer is arrogance. Who am I to beg God to do things on my behalf? Prayer as in giving thanks, ok, but prayer as in ‘make mommy and daddy stop fighting’ not ok. Just my two bits.
God recommends prayer. It would be arrogance not to talk to Him.
If you come from a religious society, if you grew up that way, I think it’s a pretty natural thing for people to do at times. I mean like say you’re friend was in a bad accident, or you’re about to scratch off that last number to get a match on the 300 million dollar lottery, or you’re 12 and someone just came through the door you forgot to lock and you’re like ”god, please don’t let mom catch me jacking off to these underwear models!”
Totally natural built in thing. You know how like your family and friends find out you’re in the hospital and they always say ‘We’re praying for you!’. It’s like that.
I agree it’s ‘natural’ and even encouraged, that doesn’t make it right. I’m Catholic, seriously thought about becoming a priest. I just feel it is arrogant, like I said, just my two bits.
I don’t think Christians think about it like that at all. In fact, they’re encouraged to pray and ask for anything. It’s their own personal god you know. I mean until he gets mad and sends you to hell.
Are you denying my lived experience or are you going 700 Club on me and saying Catholics aren’t christian?
I sit at the atheistic side of the scale, having shifted from away from the deism I held as a youngster. I really enjoyed this article and concur with rhywun. I’m much less militant (at a non existent level of militantism) because if it makes sense within a libertarian perspective to live and let live.
I would like to say that the golden rule is a pretty neutral concept in terms of morality, and I’ve seen nihilistic morality broken down into preference, that is, basically the golden rule or a version of the NAP. I’m not a social contract guy but a formalized set of rules based on a rule of reciprocity could serve as a rational guide to any society.
Anyway loved the post, keep it up.
I’ve never been a militant atheist, because if I’m right it doesn’t matter, so why bother anyone else.
That’s the conclusion that I reached after college, the real world has a way of putting things in perspective
Also if I ever returned to faith I find Catholicism to have an appeal
Really? You like the ceremonies and tradition?
I do, at least with religion. God should be grand and honored as such. The ceremony and tradition present a gravitas I feel would honor a creator
I love watching the Christmas Mass at St. Patrick’s Cathedral every year even though I’m not a very good Catholic.
Lapsed Catholic here, now agnostic.
I tried going back to mass several times but they ruined it- ‘and also with your spirit’ – BAH!
Ritual needs to stay the same to be effective, imo.
I’ve been to a few masses, I always enjoyed them, it helped that I was raised Nazarene then baptist, those Protestants love them some long services
My wife is catholic. The thing I appreciate is they don’t drag it out all day like southern baptist.
As kids we were forced to attend mass, but could pick when we went. We made sure to get up early on Sunday for when Monseigneur wasn’t doing the mass because the other priest at our church could get it done in ~ 20 minutes.
I mean watch on TV… but I did attend a Christmas mass at an amazing cathedral in Newark, NJ of all places a few years ago. The pomp and circumstance is pretty impressive. I remember the masses at my dinky Rochester church growing up being considerably less moving – the electric organ didn’t help.
The new Alleluia sucks too
Indeed, that used to be one of the highlights of mass. Especially as someone who is, let us say, musically challenged.
I’ve considered going back to church myself, mostly to force myself to get up on a Sunday morning and be at least somewhat productive, and also now that I’ve got kid and eventually kids I think it might not be a bad idea to expose them to religion so they can make the call for themselves.
It would be the Episcopalian church, of course. My wife’s family is Catholic and I’ve been to more than a few masses. I always find it jarring how “hip” and “new” they try to make the service, and a lot of the churches look like they were designed by Ikea on the inside. I was raised Episcopalian, and that means you ignore the whole thing all week except Sunday morning, in exchange for which you can rest assured you will hear no hymn written less than a hundred years ago, the organ will be real, and the interior will look old, dammit! Not like the lobby of a Best Western!
I require my erections to be at least as complex as me.
Oh, BTW, great article. Mirrors some of my own journey.
Man, did *that* ever get posted to the wrong thread.
Ah well.
“We’ll have your Mass done in under twenty minutes or you don’t tithe!”
The Church of England you say?
Bill, we have very similar ideas. My first kid is on his way and that is partially my impetus for being interested in church again. I also completely agree with your aesthetic preferences of churches. Some are just shameful.
I think that belief in a deity was beaten out of me quite thoroughly by my rabbis. So my guess is that consciousness is just an artifact of molecules bumping.
Not that I have any proof of this, of course, but our understanding does seem to be monotonic.
And I’ll join the chorus- fine work.
So my guess is that consciousness is just an artifact of molecules bumping.
God don’t see nothing wrong with a little bump and grind.
Reminds me of an old classic:
The supernatural, that is those thing outside of nature, do not existl. There is no magic.
Says you
*pulls thumb off, replaces thumb*
Whooo…explain that!
I’m not saying it was aliens, but it was aliens
Sounds like a tautology / definition.
Agreed, but with the caveat that our understanding of nature is shallow and limited, if by nature you mean all of existence. An entity that exists outside of the bounds of the physical world we inhabit might be so alien or so beyond our ability to comprehend that he/she/it/they could very well seem like magic or the divine, and, maybe for all intents and purposes, might as well be. But I still believe that whatever it is would operate according to rules or patterns, and would be discoverable and measurable in some fashion.
Or take it one step further.
If you are going to posit a creator for the universe, it would be entirely consistent with known science about the nature of space-time and the big bang to posit a multidimensional creature that does not exist within our universe as a creator of everything – including space and time. He would be the one that kicked off the big bang, living in his many-dimensional universe that is utterly and entirely different from our own.
Such a creature would be able to see all of space and time at once, just as you might be able to see all of a painting you are making (as a two dimensional creation by a three dimensional creature.) This would be consistent with judeo-christian notions of God as the creator who is omniscient, with time merely being another dimension in his little 4 dimensional sculpture. It would make sense of quotes like “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Such a God might be entirely removed from our universe, never interacting with us. Or he might be able to stick his fingers in and change things. Just as a 3 dimensional creature interacting with a flatland (2-dimensional) universe would be capable of explainable feats, so an 11 dimensional creature interacting with a 4 dimensional space-time universe would seem fantastical and unexplainable.
Even if such a creature does exist, it seems a bit like Terry Pratchett’s observation that just because gods exist that is no reason to worship them. The mailman and my table obviously exist, but I don’t worship them.
That’s a separate question. Mel Brooks’ Two Thousand Year Old Man had a nice take on that one.
It went roughly “Oh yeah, God. Yeah, we didn’t used to worship God. We used to worship Tim.
Yeah, Tim was so big… really big. And he’d give you such a shot…
So we’d say “Oh mighty Tim, please don’t hit us on the head!”
Then one day Tim got struck by lightning, and we said “maybe there’s something out there bigger than Tim.”
You could describe worship like this:
If god exists he created people for a purpose. If that purpose can be understood then you can explain what you “should” do in life. Therefore worship is just studying understanding of what you should do.
I actually know the answer, but I’m not quite sure what to do with it. I mean, I dislike crowds, but I’m pretty good with people giving me their money, and I understand the leader of a cult traditionally has easy access to nubile young women.
Decisions decisions
I don’t know how there can be any doubt that religion was used throughout at least the last couple thousand years to manipulate and control people. That’s why there was an exclusive group of priests in early religions, who were the only ones who could talk to the gods. And if you didn’t listen to them, you might get smited and shit. They knew how to get that big palace and all the pussy.
You mean just like party apparachiks and commissars in secular societies?
It seems as though it doesn’t matter where you go, or who you believe in, someone in that social milieu wants to tell you what to do, and claims some higher ideology requires that they exercise such powers over you.
Odd that. Makes you wonder whether that’s religion, or just human nature at work.
“You mean just like party apparachiks and commissars in secular societies?”
Yes!
I don’t think there’s any doubt that some people will manipulate other people for an advantage. Whether religion was a tool for increasing this or limiting it isn’t as clear. Catholic Priests being forbidden to marry or have sex doesn’t exactly jive with the priesthood being a path to get pussy. Sure, some probably just ignored that part and used the position for power but that still means the position wasn’t set up to optimize power, since if you were to invent it for that purpose you wouldn’t make that rule. Kings certainly never limited themselves in such a way.
If religion was invented for the purpose of power it’s probably more bottom up then top down. A religious moral system being expected of the king by the common people limits the king more than the common people. Instead of unlimited power they only have power to act within certain constraints. We may choose our morality based on what we want others to do, not on what we expect ourselves to do.
When I returned to faith, I read and read and read. I’m still reading. Seminary textbooks, philosophy, theology, the Bible, commentaries, devotionals, internet articles, etc. I’ve read stuff from people who cram 100x more intelligence into one sentence than the entirety of my contribution to Glibertarians. However, the dumbest thing has been the most solid affirmation of my faith. A guest preacher a few years back told about a poster he saw. It had an anatomical diagram of a human on the left and a mechanical blueprint of a sports car on the right. In text it said something like “One randomly evolved from nothing. The other was designed by 500 engineers and assembled by 1500 technicians.” It was stupid and trite, but it was oddly compelling.
Well, a human evolved through how many quadrillions of generations and quadrillions of trial and error tests before it finally got to this form? Many more than how many people it too to build a car.
And a human (and the rest of the life forms on Earth) is much, much more complex than a sports car.
+1 Macroscope
A favorite novel of mine which features a device that they use to “view” a human backwards through time and all its previous generations.
Well, a human evolved through how many quadrillions of generations and quadrillions of trial and error tests before it finally got to this form? Many more than how many people it too to build a car.
I think you missed the point. I fully concede that it’s stupid, trite, and can be shot full of holes. The point was that sometimes you can think and think and think, but sometimes the deep stuff isn’t as emotionally satisfying as a quick and dirty argument.
Buddha’s in the hood?!
I don’t think it’s stupid or trite. Since humans and other life forms are more complex than cars if you posit that random accidents created one than random accidents could create the other more easily. However most people would think it absurd to suggest a fully functional Ferrari could be sitting on a planet in the universe given infinite time, space, and variations to cause it to happen. It seems it takes a certain level of education to create the necessary cognitive dissonance to be so sure of that explanation for one machine, yet think it an absurd explanation for any other machine.
Racist!
One randomly evolved from nothing. The other was designed by 500 engineers and assembled by 1500 technicians.” It was stupid and trite, but it was oddly compelling.
Not to be a dick, but humans randomly evolved in a universe with trillions of planets over billions of years. The car didn’t take nearly as many labs or the amount of time.
There’s a name for that. The idea that because we exist, we believe that we’re so rare and unusual as to be miraculous. The odds are stacked against life existing, much less evolving into a human being. However, in an infinite universe over unfathomable amounts of time, no matter how steep the odds are in one go there are a functionally infinite number of tries. From that perspective, it’s not that big a deal.
You’re talking about the Anthropic principle. The fact that I exists requires a universe that can make me and allow me to live and think.
I don’t think it’s stupid or trite. Since humans and other life forms are more complex than cars if you posit that random accidents created one than random accidents could create the other more easily. However most people would think it absurd to suggest a fully functional Ferrari could be sitting on a planet in the universe given infinite time, space, and variations to cause it to happen. It seems it takes a certain level of education to create the necessary cognitive dissonance to be so sure of that explanation for one machine, yet think it an absurd explanation for any other machine.
Not to be a dick, but humans randomly evolved in a universe with trillions of planets over billions of years. The car didn’t take nearly as many labs or the amount of time.
Not to belabor the point, but it’s still an apples to oranges comparison. There is no other natural process remotely comparable to the evolution of life. We didn’t find proto-cars being assembled through natural processes when we landed on the Moon. We could monitor a trillion planets over a billion years, and the wind isn’t going to erode rocks into a statue resembling the Venus di Milo (or any form with the level of detail of that statue) anywhere in the universe.
One of the most complex examples of spontaneous inorganic organization would probably be star system formation, which is exceedingly simple in comparison to evolution. (Not saying that it is easy to calculate, just that the process is a comparatively simple one)
Anyway, I’m kinda apathetic on the whole evolution thing, so I shouldn’t harp on this too much, but my point is that the “big numbers, big numbers… la la la” argument that many laymen assert in defense of evolution isn’t particularly convincing. A big number divided by a bigger number is a really small number.
There is a problem here, for me. So, I’ve come to the conclusion that evolution is absolutely a scientific fact. First there was Darwin and you could make an argument because all he had was simple observation not much more. Then there was a hundred years of archaeology. But the killer is DNA. It’s indisputable in tracing human evolution and gene mutations. Also, any evidence of modern tool making humans ceases to exist once you’ve went back far enough. So the question for me is. We, humans, viruses, we’re all basically data and code. So sure, I can perfectly accept that idea of self improving code that writes itself. After it already exists. Where’s the original programmer? This is why I’m still an agnostic. How can a program write itself and write itself to make itself self improving? I’ve yet to see anyone explain this well yet.
That sums up my “unmoved mover” point really well.
Sorry Q, I meant to say ‘paleontology’ in that post, not archaeology.
No prob.
Well, a deist would cite the concept of the Paley’s “Divine Watchmaker”. And it’s hard to disprove.
And hard to stamp out.
GOD created a mechanical world and set it into motion.
God created evolution as a manufacturing process.
You know who else had a Solution to a (((Question)))…
Einstein?
Every woman ever?
Alfred Nobel?
Maimonides?
Ramesses II?
Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
I’m no deep thinker. I love guns, titties, scotch and jalapeno poppers.
How much deeper do you need to go, man?!
Like naval gazing is somehow preferable to those, right?
Re: The Golden rule:
If I want to be whipped and tied up, should I do it to others?
Only if they ask or are paying well.
Your or should be an and.
We’re libertarians, not almsmen.
What if I don’t want to ask or pay??
Only if you are really a switch; if you are just submissive you’ll be topped by the bottom.
Actually sound advice. Thanks!
Are you in front of someone’s salad?
No! I would never do that to someone. If I hire the naked chef to make my significant-other a salad, I’m not going to cheat on them with him right in front of it! I am moral!
Well, joke’s on you as this is a highly immoral website.
Really? Did you finally fail the ‘Family Friendly’ test?
Don’t tell him about the crush porn.
I’ll get the jelly.
Agnostic here. Can’t decide if I’m a strong or apathetic version.
Pascal was a cunt. Faith or belief is not a gamble. It is a principled decision that, if God exists, he will surely know why you came to your choice to believe. A god that accepts a crude calculus of fear is not one I’m interested in.
Thanks Q
I like the Pascal’s Wager argument for climate change. “What if we’re wrong?!”
Well, what if? Are you willing to tell peasants in China or India and everywhere else that their rapid development into industrial-class existence must be curtailed lest we wager wrong on whether the climate changes?
And if you’re hanging your bets on industrialized nations de-polluting into inexistence, haven’t you already lost the wager?
Bailey had one of his patented pulling-figures-out-of-his-ass pieces at TOS today, claiming we’ll be poorer in a hundred years if we don’t spend trillions of dollars to avert more pleasant weather in Quebec. It was not well-received.
That sounds like a Krugnuts economic argument.
Right up there with we have to create a bubble to fix a bubble
I read it more as an attempt to quantify the problem, and showing that it really isn’t one (who cares if people are 2% poorer 100 years from now, assuming the climate apocalypse happens, and then adding 25% to it). Though he doesn’t go far enough and actually say it, it seemed strongly implied to me.
Fair enough. It was a crazy day at work & I didn’t read it as closely as I might normally have.
We’re almost always assuredly wrong in some way. Consensus is bullshit. Empiricism or GTFO.
Also best enjoyed in that order. Have you ever had poppers sober? Not nearly as good.
Better yet, put ’em all together at the same time.
It’s a funny thing how often you hear “don’t you believe in science” from the IFLS crowd (which generally doesn’t think they believe in things they don’t understand, but they do, oh how they do).
I don’t believe in any Creator that gives a pico-shit about us – individually or tribally. That said, how can you believe in a rational universe (i.e. one comprehensible in any manner to our slightly over-developed primate brains) that happened utterly randomly. Hell even our theory of what constitutes randomness (at the quantum level) is an anthropocentric mess.
“The true purpose of an education in scientific research is to inculcate a certain mindset amenable to critical thinking ”
And to learn to think like a commie, amirite?
Sorry, I couldn’t resist since that seems to be an inescapable effect for most working in research.
Anyway, back to reading your post…
“is to inculcate a desire to destroy the bourgeoisie and carry out the Glorious People’s Revolution”
Better?
Well, it’s more accurate if we’re talking majority.
I’d be interested to see how many physics PhDs become commies. Doesn’t seem like it’d have any effect, unless there is some sort of osmosis happening from other parts of campus.
Hey, look at Bill Nye the Science Guy, he’s so sciency or they wouldn’t call him Science Guy, right? Do they call YOU Science Guy? I think not! He’s like the smartest PhD in physics… errr… I mean bachelor of mechanical engineering… umm, I MEAN SCIENCE! HE FREAKING LOVES SCIENCE! SHUT UP DENIER!
Wanna see my sex junk?
Bill looks like the type of guy who should have had a heart attack from all the coke he must have been doing about 10-20 years back. Really he should have, and avoided ruining the childhoods of so many of us poor millennials.
The engineering bit is especially weird since engineers tend to have to deal with problems in the real world and should be less affected by ivory tower syndrome.
That depends on whether or not the engineer ever had to design and manufacture a product while maintaining a profit margin.
Correct, some of these people stay in academia forever, they never venture into the real world.
Even NASA engineers aren’t as bad Bill.
They have rockets and stuff to make fly.
Based on conversations with colleagues, it varies strongly by where they work. Still in academia, 65/35 split commie to apathetic. I don’t think you can survive in academia having outspoken wrongthink opinions, so the ones that are apathetic are probably a mix of truly apathetic and maybe some libertarian/conservative leaning. Outside academia, most that I’ve had contact with are pretty libertarian, though that may be self-selected.
Oh God (no pun intended), is this going to be good, I’m glad I didn’t wonder too far away. Had no idea you were interested in this stuff, Q.
Where’s John to spice this up?
In cat-butt heaven?
I snickered at that
omg
Eddie too. And Sevo.
Imagine the clusterfuck
Uh, there was someone here not too long ago who seemed to be getting pretty butthurteded over me asking some questions about religion. I mean, they were actually legit questions, not SHUT UP YOU CHRIST FREAKS!
Yes, just like we avoid talking about the other hot-button issues like gays, politics and 2A.
Don’t forget Mexicans!
There does seem to be a consensus on weed, however.
What about butt-sex?
Number 6 covered that. Or do you mean butt sex with animals?
I never covered up anyone’s butt-sex!
Transdimensional butt-sex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBuX4Xf_y4
I think that kind of brittle insecurity among bleeverz may indicate that they haven’t really thought that much about their own beliefs.
Well, as long as you add a sizeable number of athiests to the ‘bleevers’ list. I find them more tiresome than god-botherers.
Evangelicals of any stripe are irritating unless you don’t mind screwing with them.
*hands Scruffy a pamphlet and asks, “Do you have something we can pray together about?”
I think that kind of brittle insecurity among bleeverz may indicate that they haven’t really thought that much about their own beliefs.
It’s a massive problem in some circles. In the efforts to not intimidate and scare people off, many churches have gone to the “evangelize without knowing your shit” model. That may work for inviting your coworker to a church cookout, but it gets you completely shredded in any real evangelistic setting.
Many churches have an “inbreeding” problem. They’re populated with from-birth believers who know the basics of all of the stories, know all the songs, speak the jargon, and show up to church on sundays. They’re taught by people who went through the same process. They’re surrounded by folks who went through the same process. These believers are stuck in an echo chamber just as much as the most clueless SJW. They know nothing of philosophy or theology. They know nothing of what it’s like to be an agnostic or atheist. They don’t even know what it’s like to think deeply about what it means for God to exist. This was all something they “wrestled” with at age 12, and the wrestling had more to do with how often mommy and daddy made them go to Bible study than an inner dialogue regarding the divine.
Modern Christians are better equipped to tell you the 53 man roster of their local NFL team than the 66 (or 73) books of the Bible. How pathetic is that? They believe that the God of the universe has a deep abiding personal interest in their well-being, and they’re more well versed in the mindless entertainment of the day than in the text they believe to be literal communication from God to them.
There’s a reason things like catechisms and adult rites of initiation (Catholic Confirmation for example) exist. Heck that’s part of the underpinnings of Anabaptism, you have to understand what you’re getting into.
I’ve read the bible all the way through at least 5-6 times. All of it. Not because I was made to do so under threat of severe punishment, but because curiosity. So I know what it says in the book. I think there’s some good stuff in there, useful stuff, some wise advice and all that. Some of it is really creepy weird, like Revelation.
What started to actually bother me and make me start thinking is the people I’d meet when we would move and go to a different church. I started asking questions as I no longer felt I was just some little kid who would be scolded by parents and other adults for mouthing off. My experience was typically like this.
Me: How can we be sure God really exists?
Person: You don’t know him son, he talks to you!
Me: What, he likes calls you up on the phone or what?
Person: *Frowns* You have to have faith! You just accept him and he’ll come to you, his spirit will dwell in you!
Me: *thinking this person is nuts*
Oh G-d, I immediately thought of Sevo too. He does get a bit worked up over this stuff.
+1 Skydaddy
No John OR Eddie. I haz sadz.
Because it’s been on my mind all afternoon
LOL The white frosting at the end is too much.
Jeffrey Epstein … Come on Down!
Man, Stephanie’s very young in that video.
I can’t believe HM didn’t post that.
I have in the past.
No doubt where I got this filth.
This lovely, unforgettable filth.
Who do you think supplied the icing?
One of the finest videos on the internet.
“I’m no deep thinker. I love guns, titties, scotch and jalapeno poppers.”
Hey, who even come up with this correlation in the first place?
You ever hear about the womanizing of Einstein? What about the notorious hard partying of Wernher von Braun? Ben Franklin was known to be real horn dog.
Schrodinger had two wives. Feynman was a big fan of the hallucinogens.
Does being drunk on Talisker with a .45 in one hand, a fistful of poppers in the other with your face buried in some 34DD’s make you more or less likely to think deep thoughts? Only the Shadow knows…
“Schrodinger”. That’s another thing that makes me still agnostic. Quantum physics is truly bizarre stuff. I wish I understood it and the math behind it. You might, I just grasp the basic concept.
It’s all probabilities. If you have a grasp of statistics, you can do quantum physics calculations. The physical interpretations thereof are murkier.
So, rich and famous people used their celebrity to have a good time in the past just like they do today, Shocker!
George Costanza
He could be your latex salesman.
I’m wandering between Jordan Peterson and ignosticism these days.
Did Agile Cyborg ever make it over here from TOS?
I think I saw one post from him, but nothing for a long time since then.
There was a post in the very early days. A different handle but I really had the feeling it was AC. I think he even hinted at it. He said (roughly remembering) he was checking the place,out but he thought he would be uncomfortable letting go in a place that was smaller and more intimate (not his word but how I remember the thought). It was concise and well-written like his sober stuff always was.
So slightly OT: holy shit
http://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/straight-black-men-are-the-white-people-of-black-people-1814157214
Oh wow, I didn’t know that was a Gawker property. It all begins to make sense now.
I actually don’t think it is (or was); its just also on Kinja, and also happens to be owned by (i think) Univision who bought a couple of the ex-gawker properties
like 2-3 weeks ago this same issue came up and i looked it up. now, of course, i can’t remember 100% if i’m right or wrong. I really should start smoking weed again because this is bullshit, if i’m going to have short term memory loss, then i might as well be high.
Constantly attenuating and sloughing off your constituency doesn’t seem like a very savvy method of appeal or politicking, or whatever the hell they’re trying to accomplish.
But I encourage them to continue.
At the
sidewindersgolden knights avalanche game. 18 bucks and im very top behind net.Drink a beer for me.
It was $17 for 2 bud lights
Ogle the Ice Girls for me.
one was very cute and was dancing around the whole night.
“Further, I posit that even if G-d did not exist, it would have been necessary for us to invent him.”
First of all, I have been fascinated by the idea of religion for a very long time. I grew up around it and it was beaten into my brain for years before I was able to escape this constant bombardment and think on my own about it. And think I have, long and hard. One of the first sort of conclusions I came to was that religion could not have been just made up because it’s just too abstract of an idea. I think you touched on this idea by talking about fact humans believe this is true, must make it true.
I’ve also found that religion is a very hard topic to discuss in public, because people tend to get very butthurt over it from one or both sides, every time. It’s like discussing abortion, but worse. But I am not discouraged. So I’ve been off on doing some very hard reading on anthropology + paleoanth and early history to get to the bottom of this. Well, not only because of this subject, but because I’ve always been fascinated by early history.
At the moment, I’m starting to get a little persuaded by the argument that the most primitive forms of religion were invented shortly after language and settling down as a way to keep people loyal to the society instead of lying and cheating and not getting along with others. It was a sort of bond that glued society together to secure an advantage as a larger cohesive society after having lived in primarily small hunter gatherer groups who were already bonded by kinship and their absolute dependence on each other for basic survival.
I tend to agree with you; did a burning bush really talk to Moses? Probably not. It’s also likely he thought the Ten Commandments (if it really happened that way) were his own words and not really carved in tablets transported in front of him. Whether it was divinely inspired in some way is what I like to ponder. My conception of G-d involves Him hiding his existence very well.
I’ve been convinced for the longest time that people had to have seen something that inspired religion, that they couldn’t have invented it out of thin air. And it’s hard to tear myself from that. But when I started to grasp the concept that it likely did not look anything like the religion of today when first conceptualized and then gradually evolved as a control mechanism by a cabal of priests, it started to make some sense. I have to tell you, that first bunch of dudes that were hanging out and said ‘hey guys, we’re going to tell people there’s a mysterious sky god who only talks to us and if they don’t give us all their stuff, he’s gonna fuck em up’, that was the dawn of bullshit and also politics.
I’ve thought about this, and it seems at least as (and probably more) likely that there was no conscious plot to deceive and control, that religion happened organically as a way to help to process the vast unknown, and that those ends of hierarchy and control happened spontaneously and gradually. I don’t buy the ‘smart physically weaker dude finds way to triumph over strapping oafs’ argument; at least, I find it dubious. It’s more people casting their own experiences on the past, like happens a lot in evo-psych philosophizing.
Spontaneous ordering and evolution of religion is a lot more plausible. And eventually, yeah, people realized the authoritative power religion could have over masses; but I think that was equally-arguably subsequent to the development of religion as we broadly understand it.
No, I don’t think it started like that either, that came later. At first it was maybe just a way to make larger groups, after settling down in one place, more socially adhesive and deter trouble makers.
I don’t buy the ‘smart physically weaker dude finds way to triumph over strapping oafs’ argument; at least, I find it dubious.
Especially since so many early religions had war gods and human sacrifice. What’s to stop the strong man from figuring that the gods have blessed him by allowing him to smite the weak man.
I’ve toyed with the idea of a sci fi short story where in a calculation of the (say) billionth digit of pi or e, suddenly a string of ones and zeros appears, which when decoded… well, you know. Some of that idea (a hidden message intended to be discovered when mankind is far enough along) was stolen from Clarke’s “The Sentinel,” but hey, that’s what sci fi is about.
Lester del Rey’s “For I Am A Jealous People” was delightful, btw.
The largest prime number?
“Now there is.”
Hey OMWC, if any of you Jewish Tuesday contributors want to post some articles on the history of Judaism, I’d be interested in reading. Or maybe you can point me to some good (trustworthy sites), I mean you know how much junk is out there, and when you don’t know the subject it’s easy to get misled. I know you posted articles on some of the old religious stories, I’m looking for something more from a historical perspective.
Let me see what I can cobble together. The myths are interesting, the reality (at least for origins), well… not terribly certain.
“the reality”
Polygamy. Lot’s of polygamy.
And booze! And killin!
I want to know something I don’t already know!
Thank you, sir!
http://www.jewfaq.org Yes, seriously.
Go for it. I’d read it.
This is legit? I mean, I know you guys are funny guys and all.
I’m a glutton for punishment.
Wife: Honey what are you reading?
Me: JEWFAQS!
Wife: OMG! Is that racist?
Me: I said ‘facts’.
Also, thanks. I shall endeavor to learn things.
The first man who can convince the other tribesmen he is in contact with an all powerful and vengeful supreme being sure has a leg up on being the Top Man in the tribe, with all the perks that go along with it.
I actually know the answer.
Send a self addressed stamped envelope with $200 cash to Glibs, and I’ll get it to you in 6-8 weeks.
Wait… you’re not the Prince of Nigeria are you?
*sends Playa a Western Union, gives address in middle of Congo for pick up*
Then we can pass that knowledge on to others for a nominal fee as well, yes?
The blue ghost has more talents than linking tits. Who knew. Thanks. Being a backsliden raised evangelical degenerate I have no idea where I fit in the G-d spectrum anymore.
My developers are working day and night to help me pass the Turing Test. Tits were step 1, this was step 2.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!
Profit…hah. If I had invested every quarter I shoved in a pac man machine in 1980’ish in the stock market I would be retired.
Bye. It’s been fun.
Is that goodnight or a full piece out?
I’ll give you a full piece out. heheh
Heheheh
Bye or good night?
There’s no Ren without Stimpy, bubs…
I was raised Lutheran, became atheist but learned some humility and became agnostic. I struggled for a long time with the idea that without a god any value would be purely subjective.
That was the biggest ethical problem Nietzsche took on ultimately resulting in Master/Slave morality and the Ubermensch. The G-d is Dead stuff is usually taken out of context in a very facile way, IMO.
Well, as catchphrases go, it’s pretty … catchy … isn’t it?
Co-Inky-dentally, Libertarian Student Daughter is covering Nietzsche in moral philosophy at the moment (heh, makes me think of Starship Troopers) and sadly, she’s outgrown me as a sparring partner, leaving me in the dust when it comes to philosophy.
She left me behind morally about 10 years ago.
I struggled for a long time with the idea that without a god any value would be purely subjective.
This is something I backed into after returning to faith. With my return to faith came a questioning of my politics, and a move to libertarianism. As I did that, I asked the question “why?” a lot. After some introspection, so many of the answers boiled down to “it feels good to believe this.” It felt extremely hypocritical to criticize the statists for legislating by TEH FEELZ when all of my “lofty” principles were built on emotion-based premises. What is a thin veneer of rationality worth? Absolutely nothing when it isn’t anchored to anything.
I think the biggest question that can be asked out of this is , are those frozen pre-made poppers or homemade from scratch?
Homemade from my very own jalapeno plant. What do you take me for, some kind of knuckle dragging Deploranazi? Don’t answer that…
Whoa. Now I wanna grow jalapenos and do this.
Next contribution will have the recipe I trust. Hopefully they have a falafel crust. I had to alter OMWC’s recipe to get mine to stay together, but I am not one of (((you))).
Not too difficult. Slice off the stems, slit ’em open and put a glob of cream cheese in then wrap in bacon. Now, you have to make a choice; perhaps the *most* important choice. You can either just bake them at 400 for 20-25 min (the “healthy” way) OR you can batter them in your favorite batter (I prefer flour, a good Amber, water, paprika, salt and pepper mixed to the consistency of wallpaper paste) then deep fried (the “unhealthy” way). Can’t go wrong.
Just say “I like my poppers like I like my women…”
Baked?
Less likely to say no…
If they fall apart, it usually means that the garbanzos weren’t hydrated enough.
knuckle dragging Deploranazi is basically the highest complement I can give someone.
What about Cousin-Humping Bitter Clinger?
Oh, I like that!
You are a wise man
Nice, Q
Thanks dood.
There is no evidence that God exists. You can at most say that within physics and science there often appears to be some elements of “design” or “structure” as opposed to reality being mearly the result of random molecules colliding. It does not follow that these elements originate from any metaphysical source, much less a specific god from an ancient religion. It’s possible those elements are nothing more than the way our five senses interpret the natural world.
Interpret or make sense of.
Entirely true.
“does not follow that these elements originate from any metaphysical source, much less a specific god from an ancient religion.”
Agreed. The question is ‘where do they originate from’? That is a real dilemma. I have now, personally broken this down into 3 different topics.
1. Is religion made up, created by men? I think the answer is yes.
2. How was religion invented? Jury still out for me.
3. What is the universe, where did it come from. Jury way out on that one. One theory I’ve started to ponder, is there a creator? So I guess that’s basically the question. This could all be a simulation. Or it could have been created by some vastly superior technology, as s simulation, or an actual real physical reality. All I know is that if it’s a simulation, when I finally get the source code…
… it won’t be Javascript.
Given the universe, I’d be willing to bet PHP. Only PHP could give you such squirrely, unfathomable results as quantum physics/mechanics.
If it’s PHP, I’m hitting the self destruct button, sorry guys.
G-d obviously codes in (((Lisp))), not PHP.
Regarding 2. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that anthropomorphism could be attributed to forces that greatly impacted ancients such as extreme weather, volcanic eruptions, fertility, etc. Hell liberals do it now with things like guns.
Regarding 3. It is amazing to ponder all that we do not know. It’s almost impossible to talk about science and nature in terms of 100% certainty. Things we think we know to be true today may not be tomorrow. Take gravity. We can describe it’s effects and accurately measure it but we don’t truly understand the underlying force (although there are currently some pretty cool theories going around). Since we don’t fully understand it we cannot 100% predict that what we know today won’t change. We can only go by our observations and guess at probabilities based on those.
This is the basis of my fascination. Like trshmnstr above says, it all comes down to FEELZ in cases like these. I can easily reconcile that with my political opinions since I make absolutely no prescriptive pronouncements when it comes to faith. It comes down to what brings meaning to your life.
Gravity, I think the theory that a sufficiently massive object can put a ‘dent’ in space time so that an object less massive cannot escape it, but stays in orbit in the dent (gravity well). I mean unless it’s going really fast, then it escapes. But anyway…
yeah, well, when Zeus slaps you with some lightning-smiting, we’ll just call it an amusing-coincidence
The first song that got me started loving this Scottish band. I’d been hearing it on the muzak station for ages, one of those routine yet delightful couple minutes whilst cashiering at a credit union. I finally looked it up. Discovered the group.
They have a very early-80’s sound, but they’ve been around for quite a while.
I caught the song back in 2008 or so. Terribly underrated group. Just good, listenable, lovely music.
A little closer to home and somewhat similar, Beirut. Started in Santa Fe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8TUwHTfOOU
Go get yerself some Flying Star and that’ll snap you out of the melancholia!
Careful, I might dribble into Decemberists territory.
Till then.
Flying Star, though… loads of memories, all over town. Some romantic, most solo.
Kinda hate Flying Star, tbh.
Also Scottish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZhJCUfJAc
I actually linked to this a few days ago coincidentally.
Nice. Makes me grin. Not quite the melancholy I’m into tonight, but I’m bookmarking it for tomorrow.
Also Scottish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzQ1pNfbe3Q
ah, the year I was at university in Scotland, they were such a big band at the time. I have quite a collection of their stuff. I think Donnie Munro became member of Scottish Parliament or an MP for Scotland, or something like that. He was a big SNP supporter, I assume still is, but I haven’t thought of any of them in years.
That entire album is brilliant.
They are really getting the most out of that new motto. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/federal-probe-into-house-technology-worker-imran-awan-yields-intrigue-no-evidence-of-espionage/2017/09/16/100b4170-93f2-11e7-b9bc-b2f7903bab0d_story.html?utm_term=.ff000a9a5d65
Intrigue but no espionage.
Of course. People need to learn that words mean things, just not always the same things.
Intrigue = Democrats doing stuff
Espionage = Trump doing stuff with Putin
What do you all think of the idea that having the belief gene may have given some sort of evolutionary advantage?
And what’s the field called where this comes up?
Social construct? I mean like a real one, not like gender, which is actually biology.
^evolutionary biology/psychology.
see below link to the Peterson/weinsten talk. they spend about 40 mins on that topic.
I have little/nothing to add to the actual topic of the piece. I thought the Weinstein/Peterson debate on Joe Rogan – when they touched on the issue of religion – got very interesting. I also thought Rogan made it occasionally funny by chiming in and saying dumb shit.
These days I think of GK Chesterton’s theoretical gate, where religion is concerned. It’s served a purpose so far, I’m not sure I trust its being taken down entirely. Especially when the replacements seem so ready-built for destroying liberty…
In wikipedia’ing that, I came across the Cobra Effect (where a remedy to a problem exacerbates the problem). It’s so freaking applicable these days. *cough* Nazis *cough*
http://www.thedailybeast.com/new-antifa-book-only-bougie-wimps-oppose-left-wing-violence-against-fascists
Y’all muthafuken bourgeois wimps just got put on blast, yo!
Mark-ass Busters. Only a sly shady bitch won’t kick rocks at trick wangsters wielding tiki torches. Feel dat.*
*I apologize in advance to those who feel that I’ve culturally appropriated the linguistic stylings of my non-caucasian neighbors past and present. Sometimes it brings out the hoodrat in me*
These guys are sooo going to get a good ass beating soon enough. I’d like to encourage them that they are going to the wrong places to find real Nazis, if they want to find the real Nazis, they need to venture into real Nazi country, like some small towns TX action. Maybe just go the rodeo or something, or a gun show, just start punching them Nazis.
It will never happen. The safest path in regards to causing property damage and unchecked violence towards the Antifa bugaboo of your preference falls within the comfy confines of a heavily blue city. Accompanied by a sympathetic city council and police force. It is known.
Don’t get me wrong. They’re stupid but they’re not THAT fucking stupid.
The problem is, if this escalates and starts becoming a regular thing, those cities will start emptying of their populations. Including businesses. Then the cops who were protecting them will be ordered by city hall to bash their heads and arrest them. Revenue trumps feelz. So that scenario I think is inevitable.
They might overplay their hand in a solid blue city surrounded by a red donut state with plenty of crossboundary work commuters and a state level preemption allowing the carrying of weapons.
Denver.
Funny enough, Colorado state motto: Nil Sine Numine. Nothing without the Deity. Yes Denver was the first city that came to mind but there have to be several other cities in the mountain west or south west with similar situations. Anything too far east will have a lot more grandfathered legal power in the cities.
Austin?
Its remarkable that he was able to write a long-form piece on Antifa without ever mentioning their communist roots …. AND manage to stick in a reference to Milo Y’s “noxious” politics, while never really saying what makes them so.
amazing how he repeatedly manages to turn the story into being about “those people”
its sort of a shitty review; i don’t feel i really got any grip on the content of the book, just Tony’s hair-splitting judgement on how it relates to the larger narratives.
Unfortunately, you make a decent point. I guess I’ve becomed so accustomed to the any and all equivocations by TOS staff that I’ve pretty much glossed over much of it at this point.
Still, I’m willing to go out on a limb here and say that his heart was in the right place. I’ve never found Fisher to be purposely disingenuous.
The whole antifa movement has a ton of commie connections, not least of which is Bob Avakian’s communist cult group, RevCom or the Revolutionary Communist Party.
http://revcom.us/a/503/andy-zee-presentation-at-refuse-fascism-august-5-en.html
Let’s not forget that the woman ran over by the car in Charlottesville was reportedly a member of the IWW. So was the guy shot in Seattle. I seem to remember reading that that particular commie group also provided logistical support for the pussy hat march.
Okay. An OT request of the Assembled Ones, if I may:
The spousal unit and I are shortly winging our way to France to see family & friends, and unlike all our previous journeys, this time we have to get some sleep on the plane, ’cause we are in a bit of a compressed time schedule on the other end and can’t take a day or two to slouch around and acclimatize. We know all the usual tricks, but they don’t work, so my question is this: have you any experience with the multitude of sleeping pills available by prescription, and if so, which (if any) would you recommend for a solid six to eight hours of sleep transpolar?
My doc’s very accommodating to this sort of thing, and already gave us a few Zopiclone to “test drive” (verdict: kill me now, God — this stuff’s the perfect admixture of ineffective with nasty side-effects [disgusting bitter, metallic taste that is expressed in your saliva starting about 30 minutes after you take it and that sticks with you for about a day after you dose]). I’d like to try Ambien (the metabolite of Zopiclone, I b’lieve) or Ambien CR, but neither are available in Canada.
Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.
Xanax, a laptop, headphones, internet access to YouTube, and ASMR videos.
I’d also suggest alcohol but the one time I got drunk on an airplane it fucked up my equilibrium for two days.
For me it was even longer (several weeks). Dunno if Xanax is available. Why did you mention it?
xanax, lorazopam, alprezolam etc, yes. Let me sleep everytime I’ve been on a plane. They are all ‘downers’ calms you, makes you drowsy. Prescribed for anxiety.
Lorazopam. That stuff is like elixir of the gods. Which is why I will never touch it.
Melatonin works quite well for some people also. I get spotty results. I cannot sleep on a plane. I think they could inject me with elephant tranquilizer and I wouldn’t sleep
Lorazopam, meh, been taking it for years, tolerance and all that. Nothing to write home about.
Must just be my specific biology, but that stuff makes me feel better than anything I’ve ever tried and by a wide margin.
No doubt it makes me feel good. But a dose now doesn’t make me feel as good as a dose 10yrs ago, is what I’m saying. Anxiety wise, I can actually feel the muscle tension melt away when it starts taking affect. But it’s not as ‘fun’ as it used to be, just gets me back to normal.
Of course, I took a 30 day script and immediately stopped. So not any real tolerance. I had a traumatic event and I couldn’t sleep and was sort of a wreck, but I liked the stuff so much I was afraid to refill.
Why did I mention Xanax, or alcohol? If Xanax, it knocks me out for duration of a long flight. Sure, it leaves me groggy for several hours afterwards but the side effects are preferable to the temporary vertigo I experience for a few days after a cross-country flight.
If alcohol, it works for some, just not me. It only enhanced the negative effects I mentioned above.
To expand upon the Xanax: it reduces my anxiety. Especially when I know that I’m confined within a relatively small area with no escape and absolutely no control over my fate from takeoff to touchdown.
ambien is the shit, mainly for its lack of side effects….. (well, except for the people who go crazy and try making pancakes in their sleep or drive their truck into the Niagara river)
but ehhh. if you can get ahold of some, i’d give it a shot. it puts you to sleep ‘naturally’, and the quality of the sleep is better than normal.
Suffer insomnia like the rest of us, imo.
-(0)_(0)-
Do you have a sleepy time movie? I had bad insomnia when I was younger, so I would watch movies. I found certain movies help me fall asleep. My go to (ironically?) is Fight Club. The calmness of the narrator and the fact that I know the movie so well and I think of each line as it’s said (hence focusing, like counting sheep) usually gets me to sleep by the end of the first act.
How long is the flight, and what cabin are you in? If you’re sitting in coach, upgrading with miles or dollars if available to business in a lie flat can make a lot of difference. Whatever you take, consider how long it’s going to keep you drugged and wait until after takeoff to pop the pills. Just in case your place returns to the gate for some reason.
Another strategy, particularly if it’s shorter flight, would be sleep before hand and then stay awake on the flight. Book an airport hotel and go more of less straight to the plane.
*your plane returns to the gate
Flight’s 11 hours, on Transat (so no ability to significantly “upgrade”). Leaves at 3:45 PM, arrives 11 AM next morning. We’ve done it many times, but never with a need to hit the ground running before.
Well, thanks everybody. Appreciate the info. Guess we’ll see how it goes.
Ouch. Yeah, I’d hit the ambien.
The way I see it, a functional set of ethics can exist without the supernatural, but a true set of ethics cannot. All evidence I’ve seen from the natural world points to morality being nothing more than habit/convention + useful fiction. The only way I see morality having any more significance or authority than that is if moral law transcends the natural world. I want to believe that morality exists as something more than a useful fiction, and I want to believe that life has more meaning behind it than mere random chance, so I allow myself to believe in the supernatural despite my doubts. I figure if the supernatural doesn’t exist I have no obligation to truth beyond its utility to myself, so there is no logical reason for me to let my doubt drown my faith.
I want to believe that morality exists as something more than a useful fiction, and I want to believe that life has more meaning behind it than mere random chance, so I allow myself to believe in the supernatural despite my doubts. I figure if the supernatural doesn’t exist I have no obligation to truth beyond its utility to myself, so there is no logical reason for me to let my doubt drown my faith.
The entirety of your comment is dead on, but the quoted portion is especially so. If there is no supernatural portion, the only reason to adhere to any “morals” (or other social convention) is to avoid conflict with the enforcers of social convention. The thought of a world where God is undeniably fictional is not a pleasant thought.
You don’t have to invoke a supreme being to get to a human race that has some form of built-in controls on behavior.
Take humanity out of it for a second and examine other animals. Most mammals are not cannibals. Many animals exhibit kin-favoring altruistic behaviors. These behaviors are instinctual, programmed in their genes. They exist because it makes the overall species more competitive in nature.
I don’t know of any religion that posits a divine involvement in the morality of animals – but perhaps that is just due to a certain self-interest in those studying the divine. But they definitely have their own forms of ethics, depending on the species. And most don’t have an enforcement mechanism like social animals do.
In humans you can see examples of this built-in morality. There is a built-in revulsion for incest. Siblings raised together (regardless of relatedness) will generally not be sexually attracted to each other. This has been studied enough that the time period required for the imprint to develop has been pretty well defined.
There are other drives that have very strong biological components that are much less well understood. Humans are universally revulsed by murder… and the closer the relationship the stronger the revulsion. But at the same time we all have instincts to war, taking territory and killing rivals. These all have very close analogs in the animal kingdom. We have built logical structures to define and enforce these instincts, but even without these cultural layers the underlying instinct persists. And I doubt that anyone is positing that different species have their own moral code that is passed along, whether with a threat of eternal retribution or not.
True or not, religion is definitely useful as a constraint on society’s outliers and on edge behavior that might not have a strong instinct to enforce it but does have a high cost in a society. The first thing in this category that comes to mind is rape. There is a rather strong biological reason for rape to exist, as there is a strong biological reason for rape to be resisted with extreme violence. (there are some species of insect where violent rape is the only form of procreation. The penis is actually a serrated piercing weapon that is driven directly through the abdominal wal – a definite freak of evolution)
If you talk to atheists, you’ll find that they do not always conform to a hedonistic and libertine lifestyle. And for the most part they have a strong sense of morality and are often non-violent and anti-war. So for their part at lest, they would reject the need for a threat of punishment from on high.
There are plenty of non believers who are not murderers, rapists, child molesters or thieves. And there are loads of believers that are in fact murderers, rapists, child molesters and thieves. I’m not sure if there is a correlation between religious belief and criminality. At least not at the top level of extreme violence. In fact, I’d bet that in western nations the frequency of these crimes is lower among the “avowed atheist” crowd, since they tend to be wealthier, better educated and older.
Humans are complicated machines… and like most areas of exploration for the ontological argument, you are unlikely to find an ironclad argument here.
It would be kind of a pointless distinction. In most of the world, belief is just kind of assumed, without really being examined. Most people just say they are of X denomination because their parents’ where. And if there is one thing criminals are known for, it is not thinking things through.
I’m sure there are plenty of people in jail that call themselves Christian that think that a Samaritan is a type of Girl Scout Cookie. Just as there are plenty of antifa communists that call themselves atheists. Not because they’ve read St. Anselm and found the Ontological argument to be a bit of sophistry, but because they are communists, surrounded by communists, and since communists aren’t supposed to believe in God, they don’t believe in God.
So no true scottsman isn’t just or libertarians?
Didn’t you get the memo? The USSR, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, and China weren’t real socialist states. Next time they will totally get it right.
Ok. So Libertarians, people of faith, Communists, socialists and Scottsman. Other than that, people actually manage to be what they identify as.
this was probably linked earlier in the day, but i will repost it now because i just read it and it was good.
That’s not even real. Derp can never go that deep, or we would truly reach peak derp, which is unattainable.
Peak derp is that than which nothing greater can be conceived. Therefore peak derp is God?
Wait.
I think I’m following you…..
We can divide all derp into two categories:
Derp that exists, and derp that does not exist.
Among the Derp that exists, we can further divide the Derp into Derp that merely exists because it happens to exist, and Derp that must exist….
This is something amazing that I haven’t really seen to this level before this past election cycle. So many journalists—and consequently people just paying attention to the news at all—just implicitly accepted and accept the premise that Trump’s election / Hillary’s loss is a tragedy and we need to identify who’s culpable. They’ve already defined the paradigm for us: what is the default, and what is the aberration. Re: the digital, social-media world: “We should ‘log off’ every once in a while”—because being ‘logged on’ is the default, based on nothing. It just is the case, because it’s repeated enough.
Rejecting the narrative (any narrative) starts with rejecting the implied and consciously-constructed (i.e. false) paradigm.
This is where I end up a lot. I struggle with my faith a lot, stopping and wondering if I really believe in God and that the Bible is His Word. So I’ll stop myself by asking, “alright, say I decide nope the Bible isn’t true and there may or may not be a God that created all this. How do I justify my morality?” If I stopped believing in the Bible, would I suddenly decide murder/theft/lying/etc is acceptable? Not likely. But I know that I would still be taking my moral compass from the Bible. I would just be throwing out the authority that justifies that morality. My saying cheating on your spouse is wrong simply because I feel like its wrong holds no more weight than the person saying they don’t feel wrong to cheat on their spouse. It holds a lot more weight to say the Creator of everything says it’s wrong and can eternally punish you for it. So ultimately, no matter the doubts I have, I can’t see how I could abandon my belief and be able to justify my morality.
I think that today, maybe for a very long time, a strong need to believe a god exists, is not really so much to believe a god exists, but to believe in an after life and also a purpose. Humans have seemingly evolved to have a very strong need for life to be something with a deeper meaning. So all of those things are just a part of us. I may not believe in a personal spiritual god, but I likely have just as strong of a sense that there must be some reason to it all and that it cannot just end in some animal absolute death and then nothing. The very fact that humans have developed these feeling and ask these questions is just amazing in itself.
“a strong need to believe a god exists, is not really so much to believe a god exists, but to believe in an after life and also a purpose.”
I’m not so sure I buy that. I believe life’s purpose is found in life itself. Family, love, achievement, whatever it is you like. I have no thought of there being anything past this life amd it doesn’t bother me. If I find when I die, that there is more, then I will take that and run with it. Until then, all we have is this time on earth, so best make good use of it.
But you live in a fully functioning society. That larger society believes in something beyond itself.
This may be a built-in feature of the human mind that helps us to form large groups. Most societies (historically) have a supernatural faith of some sort. Even remote groups like the yanomani have a faith, and they’ve been separated from the rest of human theology for many thousands of years. The same goes for the Australian aboriginal people prior to the colonization of Australia, who were isolated for maybe 50,000 years. This indicates that faith and belief in a higher power are built in.
Even societies that attempt to expunge a supernatural supreme being tend to build their own form of more pedestrian deities – whether in the form of the state, the people or some despot….
Since it is so ubiquitous, one would suspect that there might be a built-in feature of the brain that enables it.
Maybe built into some brains. I love in a fully functioning society that is still largely religious. The American South. When you speak of the larger society, you are talking about the beliefs of a majority or a plurality of that societies inhabitants. I would guess that in each society you mention there are plenty of individuals who don’t buy into the theology of the larger society. I would guess that there are a lot of them. Thet may be more or less vocal of their lack of belief depending on the societal norms of their group, but I’m sure they exist. Religion I would say springs up among groups of people, not amongst individuals.
Fools go to church on Sunday https://youtu.be/FtItSjDj2w8
My preferred Sunday song.
We should try to do each day of the week, cuz this is my Saturday song.
Monday.
Groovy Tuesday https://youtu.be/nHVImXpmrp8
Badfinger
Sweet Tuesday Morning
https://youtu.be/fXE-u8ILjOU
The middle of the week might be hard, so I’ll skip to Friday.
Good one for Tuesday. Only two left then.
Wednesday Week https://youtu.be/ufFRV4Cdjvs
Thursday seems to be the stickler.
Yeah. What the hell? Thursday is like the second or third best day of the week! Somebody’s got to have a song.
Found one by Donvan and one by Bowie, but they aren’t great songs.
Maybe Conan?
I like Thursday’s Child.
About as good as I could do.
https://youtu.be/ciz_C3xiuN0
It’s pretty good.
I’ll call that a win. WE DID IT!
Harry has already lost his voice when this was recorded. Nilsson blew his vocal cords out (literally) in 1973-74. He and John Lennon would have contests while recording vocals to see who could scream/sing the loudest. The “winner” would be the one who started coughing blood. Those two, along with Ringo and Keith Moon would take lots of drugs, go to bars and restaurants in LA and get drunk and start fights. Creep into the studio at 3am, take more drugs and scream until sunrise.
Eventually Lennon returned to Yoko in NYC, went cold turkey and ended his “lost period”.
Nilsson destroyed his voice, and his career took a pretty serious nosedive. Also, drugs.
Even though the musical style is different, vocally, it seems similar to Curt Cobain. Odd.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Thanks to all for your patience reading my febrile ramblings, but I’m off to bed. Tomorrow: titties!
Good work Q. Really enjoyed it.
When it comes to the question of whether I believe in God, the answer needs to be highly qualified.
I reject the standard classifications of atheist, believer, and agnostic. Most people think those categories break down into 1) atheists, who are either sure that there is no God or sure that they shouldn’t believe in him, 2) agnostics, who are more or less adamant about their uncertainty, and 3) believers, who have this thing called “faith” that makes them believe despite all evidence to the contrary. I say those categories are bullshit.
The people who are sure there is a God and the people who are sure there isn’t one actually belong in the same boat. It’s their certainty that’s their defining characteristic–not what they believe.
True believers, on the other hand, can be riddled with uncertainty. Christianity, for instance, could probably be most broadly defined as the attempt to reconcile the senseless murder of Jesus of Nazareth with an omnipotent God. The whole religion is predicated on that kind of uncertainty. Even Jesus experienced doubt. “My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”, is what he said on the cross. In my estimation, “faith” isn’t the absence of doubt. Faith is what you believe in the face of uncertainty.
I’ll often see atheists respond in comments to the suggestion that atheism is a religion by claiming that atheism isn’t a religious belief at all–it’s like not believing in Leprechauns or unicorns. That may seem to the point, but it actually misses what the theists are usually trying to say–but can’t really express well. What they’re really trying to say is that atheists, just like believers, need to struggle with uncertainty. And there is plenty of uncertainty for atheists to struggle with.
Materialism is a hard sell. There is very little matter to matter–it seems to be mostly made up of space and energy. And what we see in the belly of atoms seems to be governed by randomness and uncertainty. Meanwhile, cosmologists tell us that some 95% of the stuff that makes up the universe is dark energy and dark matter–things that apparently don’t interact with the electromagnetic spectrum. How sure are we about what’s out there? We’re only aware of dark energy and dark matter because it interacts with gravity–a still mysterious force. No one’s ever seen a graviton, and the entirety of Newtonian physics is widely understood to be an internally consistent lie based on assumptions about gravity that we know not to be true. Don’t we just “believe” in Newtonian physics because its internally consistent rules are a useful fiction for doing things in the world, from designing bridges and cars to making electronics, understanding medicine, etc.
There are deeper mysteries to ponder, too. Certainly, when a theist says to an atheist that it must take a lot of faith to be an atheist, they’re right if you understand that what they mean by faith is what they believe in the face of uncertainty. Even if the standard scientific models are accurate, that mankind and its consciousness sprang naturally from the void, how can an atheist know that it all happened without intention or purpose? Even if a creator God weren’t necessary, just because something isn’t necessary doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Probably the worst of the bunch are the agnostics. They think they’re alone in their uncertainty, but they’re usually just people who are reluctant to commit and can’t face the reality of uncertainty. Uncertainty is the human condition. Claiming uncertainty isn’t any kind of distinction. Save the most basic mathematics calculations (1+1=2), the world is all uncertainty, and people who can’t make calls about what they believe despite the human condition are just copping out. Does she really love me? Will she cheat on me and take my kids and money? Should I accept this job? Should I go back to school? Should I buy stock in XYZ or buy a bigger house? Will I live to be 87 or 63? Should I buy extra fire insurance? Life is a never ending ball of uncertainty, and anybody who can’t make a call on their ideas about the likelihood of a God shouldn’t have any reason to make a call on any of those other choices either.
The only people who are really agnostics are people who, . . .
Imagine an alien comes out of the sky, he sticks a gun to your head and he says, “I have an envelope with the answer to the question of whether there’s a God. Tell me what you think the answer is, and if you’re wrong, I’m going to blow your head off”. The only real agnostics out there are the people who would reach into their pocket for a quarter and flip it–because they’re honestly 50/50. Their understanding is such, that in their minds, it could go either way with equal probability.
The rest of us have an opinion despite the uncertainty. That’s what rational believers are talking about when they’re talking about “faith”. Me? I’m cautiously optimistic, but I think I have more in common with atheists who are clear about their uncertainty than I do with Christians or atheists who are sure that they’re right. God save us all from people who are sure that they’re right.
I’ve heard it argued that agnostics are atheists, theists being defined as people who have a faith in God. If you don’t know if God exists or not, you clearly are not a believer. Therefore, atheist.
I still think there is a useful distinction to be made, as there are true-believer atheists who have a strong faith that there is no God. As you point out, they seem to have a lot in common with the “The bible says it, I believe it, that settles it” crowd.
There is no faith without uncertainty.
It takes zero faith to believe that 1+1=2.
Because it’s certain.
There is less of a distinction between people who believe despite their uncertainty and people who don’t believe despite their uncertainty–than there is between between people who are sure one way and are sure the other way.
Being certain of something despite the uncertainty is fundamentally irrational.
And imagining that you’re fundamentally different from other uncertain people specifically because you’re uncertain is, likewise, irrational.
Agnosticism is a a false distinction.
“I’m cautiously optimistic, but I think I have more in common with atheists who are clear about their uncertainty”
As far as I’m concerned, that’s the definition of an agnostic
If being agnostic also includes believers like me, who aren’t absolutely sure, then what’s the difference between agnostics and believers?
Again, agnostic seems to be a meaningless term–certainly if there are also both uncertain atheists and uncertain believers.
If you aren’t absolutely sure, then you’re not a believer. To be a believer, you have to believe.
Again, the world is almost entirely filled with uncertainty.
Certainty is only possible in the most basic mathematics calculations, and, even then, in the real world, we need to take numbers we’re given to calculate with on faith.
I believe I’ll see my brother again come the holidays. I’m not absolutely sure.
Because I’m not absolutely sure doesn’t mean I don’t really believe I’ll see my brother come the holidays.
Even in science, everything scientists believe is understood to be revisable given new data that contradicts what they believe today.
Belief is not certainty, and faith is impossible without uncertainty.
As you have pointed out, faith has some uncertainty. One of the oldest books in the Judeo-Christian tradition is the Book of Job, which tried to explain why bad things happen to good people.
So I think it is fair to group them into the atheist/agnostic/believer groups, with the believers sometimes struggling with their faith, and some atheists rethinking things while stuck in foxholes, and the agnostics thinking that it is a big philosophical mess they don’t need in their lives.
It isn’t even just about atheists finding religion in fox holes.
They can’t know that we sprang forth from natural processes–purposeless and without the intention of an unmoved mover.
95% of the stuff of the universe is dark matter and energy–that we can’t really see. Sub atomic particles are governed by randomness to such an extent, we’ve developed quantum physics around something we call “the uncertainty principle”. Materialists have a harder time defending themselves–because of the advances we’ve made in science.
But we’re going to insist that a God needs to be discernible through observation to be real?
There is plenty of uncertainty to go around. Simply being subject to perspective–as each of us are and all humanity is–comes loaded with a tremendous amount of uncertainty. Uncertainty is the human condition. It’s inescapable. We can minimize it, but we can never escape it entirely–and not about questions of our origins and the reality or unreality of intention behind the universe’s creation.
We’re talking about educated guesses on all sides. This is what believers are talking about when they call atheism a religion. We’re making assumptions about things we can’t possibly know for certain.
It’s not meaningless if it carries connotations of degree, and it absolutely does. I agree that it’s rather worthless per se, but as it’s typically used as contrast, it has meaning and sense. Maybe saying I’m ‘agnostic’ is copping-out in a sense. I’m fine with that. I don’t identify with much of what ‘theist’/’believer’ or ‘atheist’ connotes. I’m more than uncertain—I’m (all but) certain about my uncertainty. I’m stuck on square-one and don’t see a way to move off. That’s different from what atheism or theism is.
The problem is that the term attempts to distinguish between believers and agnostics on an inappropriate criteria.
If believers are also uncertain, then the uncertainty of agnostics is a false distinction between agnostics and believers.
Not all believers are uncertain, but the term “agnostic” doesn’t differentiate between uncertain believers and those believers who are irrationally certain.
There’s so much hostility towards anything less than militant atheism in most libertarian communities that I gave up ever discussing anything in that realm. I’ve been fairly stunned since we came here to discover that a few of you are at least on the agnostic side.
Militant atheism just seems bizarre to me. Why spend that type of energy trying to convince others that something unprovable definitely does not exist? Personally I was raised Catholic and have been fairly agnostic for a good portion of adulthood. I just can’t see getting so worked up about it I guess. We live, we die, who knows what happens after (or before).
Because it’s more about ‘fuck mommy and daddy and what they believe, they’re dumb’ than anything else. Obsessive Christian parents and Catholic schools tend to be atheist factories for a reason.
People have a need to know they are right. To have their opinion validated by those around them agreeing with them.
This also explains people who try to convince you that Lost was really deep and meaningful, and not just a bunch of inane crap that was made up as they went along.
In addition to the above, some people have an addiction to structure and rules. They have to fully commit to something whether it’s bible study as a kid, militant atheism as an adult or bowling as an old dude.
It also seems weird to me to be both a libertarian and a militant atheist. As long as the Christians, Muslims, or (((others))) and sundry aren’t forcing me to pay for for their worship, or to pay lip service to their beliefs, how is it any of my business?
Now if folks are willing to calmly discuss the existence or lack thereof a deity, possible while having a beer, then that seems like could be, and has been an interesting discussion.
I think that’s the right way to think of things
Militants atheists are reactionaries to fundy believers in the same way Antifas are reactionaries to Neo-Nazis and vis versa. I’m my opinion, all the above should be ignored.
I’ve been a member at a couple of churches that had brew and Bible sessions
“As long as the Christians, Muslims, or (((others))) and sundry aren’t forcing me to pay for for their worship, or to pay lip service to their beliefs, how is it any of my business?”
There’s also the concern about the government going after free exercise rights, and denigrating other people’s religious beliefs is on that road.
I often see people suggest that religious rights shouldn’t be respected because religion is stupid, which is fundamentally like suggesting that the First Amendment doesn’t protect stupid speech.
“It also seems weird to me to be both a libertarian and a militant atheist.”
Also, I think this came to libertarianism by way of Ayn Rand’s influence.
I see humanitarian, hopefully, progressing towards free minds and free markets as an evolutionary track. We take two steps forwards and two steps back, but government is a social adaptation, with totalitarian regimes falling or reforming because they fail in evolutionary terms to conform to the natural law of their surroundings. Religion is an evolutionary social adaption, too. Even seemingly irrational taboos can be and are adaptive. Butterflies may migrate North and South for reasons that to them have no rational components–but scientists can tell us that the reasons they do so are adaptive. That doesn’t mean the butterflies understand the reasons in scientific terms. If religion is adaptive, it doesn’t necessarily need to be rationally understood by homo sapiens who believe in it either. If religion makes society more just, liberty maximizing, and cohesive, then it doesn’t really matter if the believers understand why. It may be enough for them to understand, “Thou shalt not steal” or “Do unto others as you would have done unto you”.
In other words, I don’t care how people come to the libertarian gospel, so long as they get there.
It isn’t like that with Objectivism. With Objectivism, if your foundation isn’t rational (and atheist), then there’s no point in building anything on top of it. They genuinely believe that the world only becomes libertarian when enough people become rational, and atheism is part of that.
I think it’s in that nasty shadow world along with “I can’t come to bed, honey, I read something on the internet that was wrong and I just HAD to correct it” and “A puritan is someone who believes there’s someone out there enjoying themselves”.
Especially with the internet, where you’re dealing on a textual level alone, the impulse to form a strong, unified community is powerful. I think This Site(TM) is a more tolerant, less rigid place than the Other Site(TM) for a couple of reasons, one of the major ones being that its very formation was based on the idea that there’s an alternative to what we were experiencing back then, and to move was optional. You could stay and talk about Soave’s cocktail-party and job opportunities in a notionally ‘libertarian’ place, or go somewhere fun.
Most people prefer fun.
“Oh hey I wonder what’s on Glibertarians tonight?”
*Decision about the nature of God and religion*
NOPE NOPE NOPE ABORT ABORT.
(My response is slightly more passive because John isn’t around)
You got it! Next thread is about abortion.
A bit off topic, but it’s late here anyway, earlier you mentioned something about Sevo. Did he get banned here or did he just never show up? I also kind of wonder what happened to Papaya. He posted a few times and dropped off the radar both here and at TOS.
I don’t think Sevo ever showed up, he’s old and stubborn and will probably never shift over. Last I heard Papaya apparently wasn’t here because he’s getting laid now.
Ha! Thanks.
There was mention of John being catt-butted is he banned?
Trials,
Yeah, he got banned. Start at post 4, by invisible finger, at this link: https://glibertarians.com/2017/09/thursday-afternoon-links-return-of-the-python-drawn-double-wide-edition/
SP pronounces sentence about midway through the thread.
He’s back at TOS, FWIW.
This seems like a huge, unwarranted leap. Those are questions are much smaller in scale—easier (say, possible) to answer, similar to other questions that also have answers, and so you’ll also get feedback on them: oh yeah, this was the right choice / wrong choice (even if you can’t know if alternatives—there’s that word again!—were better or worse); similar future choices should take into account the feedback. The question of God stands apart.
No, you’re right, even agnostics estimate probabilities or instinctively lean a certain way. But that’s just emotion. The probabilities aren’t apt to be close to right, and the instinctual leaning is something I, a moment later, view skeptically.
To the alien situation, I’d probably think, “the most probable answer is that the envelope doesn’t represent Truth at all.” Yeah, I know it’s a hypothetical—rhetorical—situation, but I think it misses the point in being asked at all. It’s like those ethics questions of “Who would you save if a boat were sinking and you could only save one person?” or some variation thereof. The notion that anyone could possibly be certain that only one person/dog/whatever can be saved is absurd in the first place. Certainty has no place in such scenarios.
oops, I P-Brooks’ed
I just saw this down here.
This seems like a huge, unwarranted leap. Those are questions are much smaller in scale—easier (say, possible) to answer
The question of whether your mate really loves you and whether she (or he) will dump you, take your house, and take your kids may be more important than the question of whether there’s a God. Questions about the future are, likewise, riddled with uncertainty and extremely important.
Certainly, some questions are associated with more uncertainty than others, but plenty of smart people make big mistakes in the markets and plenty of smart people misplace their trust in someone who turns out to be an untrustworthy mate. Anyway, point was that if you claim that you can’t form an opinion about whether there’s a god because of the uncertainty, then how do you make other decisions–when so many of our decisions are likewise riddled with uncertainty?
Being human means making choices in the face of uncertainty. There are people who can’t make choices because of uncertainty–they’re mentally ill. The condition is generally referred to as agoraphobia. It’s fundamentally irrational.
To the alien situation, I’d probably think, “the most probable answer is that the envelope doesn’t represent Truth at all.” Yeah, I know it’s a hypothetical—rhetorical—situation, but I think it misses the point in being asked at all. It’s like those ethics questions of “Who would you save if a boat were sinking and you could only save one person?”
It aptly shows the problem with agnosticism. The fact is that every rational person who contends with the question does so in the face of uncertainty. If uncertainty is distinctive in that situation at all, it’s only for people who are so uncertain that they’d just make a random choice and hope for the best. What it illustrates is that all of us, rationally, are subject to uncertainty in the face of the question of whether there is a God–and the agnostics who imagine themselves somehow distinct from Christians on that question are simply wrong.
Even Jesus appears to have been uncertain.
“If it be possible, let this cup pass from me”, he prayed.
“My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”, Jesus said on the cross.
These are not words of certainty. Believers are neither atheists nor agnostics because they’re uncertain.
Being uncertain just makes them rational human beings.
I can’t say I’m the most devout Christian around, or that I fully understand the nature of faith. I do know that, having spent most of my life from adolescence onward somewhere between atheism and agnosticism, I have come to believe in the existence of a higher power of some sort. I simply cannot believe that the marvelous complexity of the universe is the result of random happenstance. Order never spontaneously arises from chaos. The incredible vastness of the universe came from something….what that something is, I can’t say I know for sure, but I feel confident that it didn’t just happen on its own. If you were to say that I’m a Christian more because of the culture in which I was raised than true belief, there’s probably some truth to that. Whatever the true nature of God is, however, I believe that there IS a god out there.
Of course you can then extend your argument to whatever higher power that would be. “How could something so magnificent and complex just happen on its own?”
Its turtles all the way down…
My frame of mind is similar, but I prefer to use the term “Holy Spirit” rather than “higher power” because the latter implies some sort of top-down central planning that I know doesn’t work. Satan is a higher power – very needy, completely lacking grace. The Holy Spirit doesn’t need anything – full of grace.
How can we be sure God really exists?
You can’t. Everyone believes what he wants to believe. An atheist/agnostic looks at the same data that I see, and draws different conclusions from me. But, having a firm knowledge that God does exist isn’t enough. You mentioned the Book of Revelation; one of the premises of the book is that God reveals Himself in a non-falsifiable way, and people will still refuse to “believe” in Him.
I said “non-falsifiable” when I meant “undeniable”. It’s what I get for trying to sound “smart”.
In any case, most of the time that miracles are described in the Bible, the result is people reacting in unbelief rather than belief. For example, the Cildren of Israel saw the plagues in Egypt, and still crafted the golden calf idol and worshipped it rather than God. Whether one accepts the story as,true or relegates it to quaint myth, it seems an accurate description of the way the human mind works (see the continued support for socialism and simultaneous derision of the Free Market as a non-religious example)
^^^This