“Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.” – Walter Sobchack
Throughout history, among the various Big Questions of Philosophy – of Life, the Universe and Everything – were the Questions of ethics, morality and human nature. These may or may not have been supplanted by the query “are traps gay” in present, more enlightened times. But ehm… let’s focus on the older questions. What’s all this then?
There once was a saying, in some old language no one cares about anymore, “Homo homini lupus est”, which either had to do with aspects of human nature or was a warning against having wolves as pets. Either way, it gave me ideas for the title of this post.
What is human nature? What is wolf nature? How similar are the two? Is human nature immutable or does it evolve in time – if so, in which time-frame? Can it be change at will – just one gulag away from the New Man? Do some things never change? How many questions in a row can I ask before it gets annoying? How much wood would a woodchuck… Hell, if I knew all that, I’d be teaching at Oxford or Cambridge – whichever one is cooler and with hotter students. In the meantime, here we are.
The debate of how static human nature is revolves around the never-ending discussion of nature versus nurture in human development. Trying to fully answer this would achieve little, as it is as old as philosophy and yet to be resolved. Long story short, it’s a combination of both, and how much of each varies from person to person, society to society, time to time, in unknowable ways. Sociologists will investigate this further –whether we want them to or not – although, being sociologists, they are highly unlikely to find anything worthwhile. Also Steven Pinker and Nassim Taleb had a spat about it over the Better Angels of our Nature book. At least it keeps them occupied.
I am not a social constructionist, so I believe there are strong elements of human nature that are clearly innate, genetic. They may change over long periods of time, with the evolution of man and maybe human society; they may be softened by education or experience. But they are forever lurking in the shadows of the human mind. This is the nature part. Frankly I find the notion that human behavior has no significant genetic component ridiculous. Everything about humans has genetic influence – height, the color of various external components (and implicitly whether you have a soul or not), or liking coriander (or is it cilantro… anyway I sort of like it, but I don’t love it). Everything, it seems, except the brain. What amuses me is that people who claim that nurture is everything are also people who claim to believe in evolution and mock religious creationists. There is no way, after all, that evolution shaped behaviour.
By human nature, of course, I do not mean characteristics of a certain individual, but general characteristics of most humans. But can we truly know which parts of humans are nature? While there are differences between brains of humans, there are also similarities. This is to do with what the immutable part of human nature is, basic facts like response to incentives, wishing to increase satisfaction and decrease unease, wanting to achieve goals, needing friends and family, sex, drugs and rock n roll (since caveman time people have gotten high and created art, often at the same time).
Some things about human nature can be positive, others decidedly not so. This should be understood and fought against by each of us – the darkness within. Fighting it is hard and often useless, but fight we must. You will not eliminate these things, try as you might. Can you truly change your nature? Well, it depends on what nature is. An alcoholic can stop drinking, but is human nature to be an alcoholic? Probably not.
The ridiculous thing is that the Old left understood this on some level. They wanted to create the New Man, the Socialist man. Bigger, better, sexier, more obedient. They realized that the nature of the Old Man was not what they wanted. But did they truly believe they could do this, or was it demagoguery? Probably a bit of both.
Of course there are elements which greatly differ between individuals and which are also biologically determined – height, athleticism, intelligence, personality, socializing. They are, of course, a clear combination of nature and nurture, meaning they can be influenced and shaped by nurture, but not completely. In basketball you are either an explosive athlete or you are not, no amount of training will make old Pie into Russell Westbrook.
One should not be afraid to admit there both human nature and some difference between individuals. It is just that morality should not be based on such difference.
Now, assuming human nature exists, can we get a coherent system of ethics out of it, especially given subjectivity is inherent in human nature? We can at least try, which is precisely what I plan on doing.
Now in regards to ethics the million silver dollar (screw inflation) question is – can a universal, objective system of ethics be derived directly from human nature? Not an easy question – this depends on where one stands in investigating the classics, like Hume’s is–ought problem or Moore naturalistic fallacy – writing tip: randomly name calling past philosophers makes you seem smart and well read. I sort of agree with C. S. Lewis on this on, that nature is about what is and ethics about what ought to be. But maybe you can use some solid facts as a starting point.
One thing is certain: ethic systems are generally based on a first premise – some basic axioms – which, cannot be easily claimed as universal. Not without extremly well though out arguments. This should be obvious by simply analyzing human civilization and finding wildly different systems.
The fact that there are different systems of ethics does not mean they are all equally valid. Is it that ethics is subjective, or that some people are just plain wrong? Are all systems equal, or are some better than others? The tendency is to say that, obviously, some are better – expecially the one the person holds, if we believe something we think it is correct.
Some axioms will be better than others, more rational, logically consistent and easier to apply universally and leading to better results, but in the end some things have to be asserted.
Ethics systems have changed. Has human nature evolved in time? Or did it reflect a changing world. I don’t think it changed substantially, and me it seems to me that systems who tried to change some very basic facts of human nature have failed to take hold. Humans have the need to eat and to do that they hunted, but after some time they learned how to satisfy hunger through agriculture – though some still claim we were better off as hunter gatherers. This often made humans much less nomadic then they were as hunter-gatherers – can this be considered a change in human nature? I think not.
As society evolves, some types of violence tend to decrease, but not disappear – is violence human nature or is it just one of several means to an end? Some people are inherently aggressive and that does not change, but as society evolves that aggression can be channeled differently or kept in check by isolation. Culture matters obviously, children learn from parents, society or religion affects people, and these evolve faster than the human creature.
A strong influence in modern times is availability of information. When people lived isolated in small town and villages, they didn’t know much about foreigners, so it was easy to view different as dangerous or evil, but as people learn that the inhabitants of other lands are people just like them, they may be inclined to more tolerance of The Others.
So the conclusion thus far: Humans have various views on morality, some better than others, and the views change in time. I will more clearly present my personal views in a future installment (should it be published).
Now, I feel every glib saying to itself, this is a pretty pointless article. Does not say much really. Which is true. But this here is a blog post, not a scholarly work, so the point is to basically do a survey of the audience. The question being “what is human nature” and how does it balance with nurture (50/50 60/40 that sort of thing). Discuss …
First, Pie, just remember, I’m first.
Oh yeah, and if you don’t love cilantro, you’re a commie.
Don’t pay any attention to this comment SP. Parsley is right next to godliness.
Mexican parsley is next to weed and buttsex.
Cilantro? Ghack. Not human food.
Do I have to tell my ice cream cone story again?
Two Suthenboys, one cup?
I’m starting to feel bad that I talked Zardoz into purging all brutals that think Cilantro tastes like soap. It has to be a genetic defect. You can’t even make fresh salsa without cilantro.
Four fifths of California’s economy relies on tricking people in other states to buy our cilantro.
I need to check labels now, I refuse to buy any commie cilantro!
Cilantro tastes like soap. It ruins any food it touches.
You have a OR6A2 defect.
Hell, if I knew all that, I’d be teaching at Oxford or Cambridge – whichever one is cooler and with hotter students.
They’re both in England, so…neither?
Well, they do have international students there too.
That only brings the exceedingly low average up. Oxford will never be ASU, no matter how many euro girls go there.
When I went there I suspected ASU might have required every co-ed to be at least a 7 to be admitted.
Yes, the enrollment video in Legally Blonde came to mind a time or two.
Let’s get one thing crystal clear before we move on here, U of A’s women will always and forever be hotter than ASU’s and any other institution of higher ed. Glad we got that sorted out.
I’m gonna give you a pass on this obvious fallacy since you’re clearly hysterical due to your cat’s health.
(wrong blue Gravatar, dude)
Y’all need to post some pics, so WE can decide.
*looks innocent*
I’m not sure how we’re supposed to tell you two apart.
All you blue people look alike to me.
It’s easy, Mad.
#6 = Pussy
Q = Titties
Also:
#6 = Limey
Q = Loser
Imma want to see pics as well
Clearly you have never been to USC or UT. Or any SEC school.
Why, soon, you’ll be telling us that not all cultures are morally equal!
Cats! Lying down with dogs! UNTHINKABLE!
(in other news, I think the #6 household’s long-lived and loyal feline protector, Frosty, may be taking the ‘big sniff’ today. 🙁 )
I think of human nature as predisposition. You can be “nurtured” out of your human nature, but you have an innate drive to do certain things certain ways.
Is human nature good, evil, amoral? I’d say all of the above.
Shit, Gilmored. Well, I was gonna send my condolences anyway, so may as well do it here. I’m sorry to hear about your felid friend! Sounds like (s)he has had a good life.
Twenty human years, which ain’t bad.
That’s not bad at all. Sorry about your fluff-baby. Hopefully Arthur just inconveniences him for a while longer.
Oh, I didn’t say so before – welcome back. Glad to hear you made it back safe after your debauched visit to LV.
Seconded!
Thank you! 🙂 It was quite debauched.
And yet, we remain pic-free.
Sad.
Glad you are back safe!
“It was quite debauched.”
Are we talkin’ Roman toga themed orgies, or burying bodies in the desert or both?
I’m talkin’… unicorns aren’t that hard to find. Y’all need better bait or something.
Nothing to see here! Move along! No pictures!
TEASE!!!!
I had two cats, Stinky and Blinky, that lived to be 20. I loved them to death but after a couple of decades of wrestling with a litter box I was ready to be done with them. Out of the blue they both died within a week. Then I felt like shit for wishing them gone. I still miss them. I dont miss the litter box.
My condolences Number.6
This is why I always preferred indoor outdoor cats. Sure they sometimes meet with a mishap, but that’s better than a litter box and cat hair on stuff all of the time.
Losing pets is the worst.
Condolences?
We’ll see.
The arthritis he’s suffering from is making it hard for him to even make it to his food, and all the dog wants to do is sniff his butt, but he’s feeding and watering himself OK for the moment, with no signs of being anything more than heavily inconvenienced.
My mom had a cat live to 23. She said it was so feeble toward the end that the breeze from walking past would knock it over. The way she put it, one time it fell over and never got up again.
Old house cats are the best. All of their give a shits are gone, and they just do what they want.
“old”? Mine has been like that since day one…just gets more sociable as the years go by, at least.
This is appropriate about the passing of pets
We had a cat named Samantha who lived to be 17. My mom actually got her before I was born.
Some time around age 11, Samantha developed a malignancy in one of her hind legs, and it had to be amputated. Still, when we got our dog, Samantha never took any shit from her. If the dog got near her, she would make that low meowling noise that pissed-off cats make, and swat at her nose if she didn’t move back. Once in a while, we’d hear a loud ruckus from a back room – with cat screeching and dog yelping noises predominating – and the dog would come slinking out with a cat claw embedded in her snout.
I was told that Samantha once chased a pitbull out of our yard.
Still, she was a nice cat and loved to be cuddled.
Hope he hangs in there. Our old Siamese lasted for 22 years and stayed mean as a snake to the end.
Don’t be silly, you can just ‘nudge’ people in the moral direction you want them to go in. Apparently, you don’t read the important books which are written by and read by important people.
Benthyg dros amser byr yw popeth a geir yn y byd hwn. Fy nghydymdeimlad.
I know that quote, I think – where did it come from?
All that you have in this world is just borrowed. Is an old Welsh proverb for loss, it’s been used for centuries. You could have seen it anywhere.
I thought he just typed a regular English sentence with his fingers on the wrong row…
Thank your lucky stars you weren’t listening to him say it.
It would have sounded like he’d just eaten a bucket of slugs.
Sorry to hear that…may the kitty litter be fresh and the mice abundant in cat after9lives.
Sorry about the kitty, 6. Losing them is the only bad thing about pets.
Like I say, he’s hanging in there. Up until the point where we have any solid evidence he’s suffering, rather than pissed at being inconvenienced.
I have to say, it’s a bit like regretting the passing of Stalin. That cat was an utter scourge on the local wildlife – including squirrels – for 18 solid years.
he may have been a bloodthirsty mass murderer, but he was OUR bloodthirsty mass-murderer.
Lol. We have a fox in the neighborhood. Many times I’ve seen him trotting through my yard with something dead and grey in his mouth. It makes me very happy.
Could I rent that fox for, say, three months this coming Spring?
My neighbors with vegetable gardens had a great year. That fox decimated the bunny population. I also saw a big-ass owl the other night.
Go nature!
They do help keep the pests down, but I’m not as big of fan of owls or hawks as I used to be.
When I first started losing chickens, I staked out a chicken to a cinder block and sat out half the night waiting with a shotgun. I was expecting a fox coming in the from the woods, but a huge owl swooped down out of nowhere and unsuccessfully tried to take the chicken. It quickly flew away after realizing the chicken wasn’t coming with it.
Since then, I’ve lost about 200 chickens, 25 guinea hens, 10 ducks, and 10 quarter grown turkeys to both types over the past few years. One owl slaughtered 2 dozen chickens over 2 nights. Just killed them and left their uneaten bodies around the fields. Next year, I’m trying Jersey Giants and more turkeys which should be too big for this owl when full grown. Also some emus within the next couple years.
Owls are assholes
Dammit – I need that . Didn’t have the coyotes like normal this year….so the only help my garden had was the occasional outdoor kitty or hawk.
We have an entire family of barred owls in the woods behind us. I don’t trust them much. They stare at you. Whenever I’m grilling and I see them near, I keep a tennis racket close to me just in case.
Sounds like someone needs a chicken pen with netting over the top and an electric fence around the base.
Sounds like someone needs a chicken pen with netting over the top and an electric fence around the base.
I use a chicken tractor now which has proven impervious using field fencing and chicken wire with PVC arches (kind of like a movable hoop house). I would much rather free range if possible though to eliminate the spiders and ticks around the house, so that’s my goal with the the larger owl-proof birds.
Then tentative plan is to build a large, walk-in pen with 2” x 4” metal fencing on the top to raise them in until they get enough size. Originally, I had the turkeys in a large pen with nylon bird netting, but the owl dive bombed through it and killed them all in the pen. My favorite breed of Bourbon Reds too. That fucker. I only use metal netting now.
At least I don’t really have to worry about land-based predators. There’s a ton of foxes, bobcats, and coyotes, along with the occasional black bear, in the woods on my property, but the donkeys and dogs keep them all away.
We have one also. Red one. I see him all of the time, but mostly early morning or dusk. It must be really true what they say about Fox being smart. Because I’ve watched him stand beside the road looking for cars and only crossing when none are coming. Other animals become roadkill often.
Crows hardest hit.
What is the last thing that goes through a possum’s mind when he is hit by a car?
His ass.
Sorry 6, losing a pet is always hard.
I don’t know if it’s an option for your area, but our vet makes house calls for an extra $60. I usually use it for livestock, but having him come here made it much easier the last time I had to put one of the dogs down.
That’s an excellent thought, but our vet is so close, we’d probably do it there.
The good news is that the cat’s back to climbing flights of stairs, according to SWMBO, so he might have his visit commuted for a while.
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this, mostly in relation to the idea that you don’t need religion to be ethical. I know a lot of very moral, upstanding folks who are not religious. Where did their internal moral code come from, exactly? Just living and interacting with other people?
I know a lot of very moral, upstanding folks who are not religious.
From a religious perspective, I find the classification of people as moral very interesting when done from a secular source. I have documents that I can rely on to make it easy to define morality.
From an agnostic or atheist point of view, I’m not sure I’d be able to separate the judeo-christian cultural influence from any innate test of morality.
I have documents that I can rely on to make it easy to define morality.
Sorry, I accidentally dropped the last sentence of that paragraph. It said “Somebody without the religious foundation doesn’t have such a document to lean on.”
Not being religious myself, I guess perhaps it would be better to determine where my own morality comes from before I go questioning where others (who I also consider moral) got theirs.
I don’t really have a text or document to which I can refer, nor do I have someone with a really fancy hat giving me direction. I can’t even say that I grew up religiously and that my own set of ethics is derived from past religious teachings. (Sunday school, Wednesday evening Awana/whatever, etc. were all basically arts and crafts. I’m a goddamn menace with a glue gun.)
I think that Pie hits on a core issue when discussing ethics in that you have to start from a premise. All too often, the modern premise seems to be egalitarianism, despite millennia of evidence that equality is no more innate than a microchip implant.
Kant seemed to believe that morality was derived from logic. Therefore, a person who is logical may intrinsically recognize the fundamental values of certain moral precepts. At least that’s what I understood him to say. I found him difficult to read
Probably based on survival like every other human trait. If you kill everyone in the clan, who’s going to help grub for roots and fend off the other guys? So, I mean you’re thinking ‘I’d really like to bash that fuckwit Gorg’s fucking head in right now. The fucker snores and he’s a terrible hunter. But he must be useful for something, and he’s my brother’. Next thing you know, empathy becomes a common trait.
OK, but Gorg is still a dick
As someone who grew up Christian and became agnostic, I can say that some of my personal ethics/morals come from the Bible and other documents, but I don’t necessarily use them as proof. I guess a lot of my personal morality might also come from an innate subconscious feeling, if that makes sense.
Which also brings up another question, of how much of a role guilt plays in morality and how much of the presence of guilt in people is genetic.
Theologically speaking, Christianity seems to acknowledge an innate moral code. Romans 2:14-15 as an example.
Absolutely. I think that people find it patronizing when I say that their innate morality comes from a God they don’t believe in. Thus, I tend to avoid mentioning that part in polite company.
😉 Polite?
Also I assume you aren’t offended when someone posits that it comes from an outcropping of our evolutionary struggles through the ages, and boils all morality down to “behaviors that make it more likely to pass your genes”? Disagreement is a vital part of discussion.
Bullshit! Behead those who insult Islam.
I was going to say exactly that to Riven, but I aint polite.
Well, sure a moral code already existed before religion. But even after religion, it was still ok to exterminate the uncircumcised heathens. So not much changed really, you still needed to get along with the tribe.
I think morality is a social construct, so simply living in a predominantly judeo-christian culture will inevitably condition the individual towards behaving in a compatible manner, assuming the individual doesn’t actively reject the tenets of the culture.
Added to which – from in inherently biased viewpoint – most of what we see as judeo-christian culture today is fundamentally reasonable. It’s easy to function in such a society without making huge efforts to be compatible with it.
Good points. I do think that a lot of people tend to abide by the Golden Rule when they’re trying to “do right” by someone else. It’s pretty easy to read the phrase “do unto others as you would have them do unto you,” and see that as perfectly reasonable without necessarily being religious.
Indeed, one might say that the underpinnings of the political philosophy we call “libertarianism” is the natural result of a small number of principles, of which the Golden Rule is one.
Which probably makes us all irredeemably biased.
Is objectivity really possible on a subject like this?
Well, if your personal morality was more in the “Might is Right” vein, you’d have a bit more of a space between you and the Golden Rule.
That distance might be sufficient to be able to insert a bit more objectivity. Let’s face it, there are lots of people out there who are more than happy to discard the Golden Rule if it suits their policy preferences,
To play off your point numero siete, I think that the acceleratingly baseless intellectual floundering of the progressive left since they completely unmoored from the prior cultural norms in the latter half of the last century is a point against the Golden Rule being innate.
actually, to be more honest about my opinion, it’s a point for human nature being mutable through nurture.
Well, I’ve never been a believer that “Natural Law” is anything but “Might is Right”. Go ask an antelope out on the veldt about that.
But if civilization is worth anything, the value lies in being a little more reflective about what it means to be a (wo)man and adopting principles which constrain the ‘natural urges’ of the animal kingdom in general.
Some people come to the conclusion as a result of a Kantian self-analysis, and some end up at the same conclusion by having a bunch of guys in fancy dress threaten you with eternal damnation, and others look at the world around them and appreciate the concept and adopt it for temselves.
“actually, to be more honest about my opinion, it’s a point for human nature being mutable through nurture.”
I initially saw nurture as torture. That being the proggy way.
Then why do all cultures seem to accept certain things as immoral? All cultures recognize ‘murder’ as immoral (not necessarily killing, but murder). All cultures seem to accept that ‘rape’ is immoral. And all cultures seem to accept, to varying degrees, that theft is immoral.
All cultures seem to accept that ‘rape’ is immoral.
All?
But your point is a good one.
The definition of what constitutes ‘rape’, no doubt, varies from culture to culture. But, generally, all cultures seem to accept that there are some sexual taboos related to forced copulation
I’m not sure that the taboo is on the copulation as much as the “ruining” of the woman. The punishment in biblical times was for the man to be forced to marry the woman and pay the father in silver (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). You can also find examples of places under sharia law where the woman who was raped is punished more harshly then the dick who raped her.
Rape was a property crime.
All cultures seem to accept that ‘rape’ is immoral.
STEVE SMITH HURT. DEEPLY.
Disagree.
Agree, although that’s based on definition
Agree on the same basis, but I think some modern cultures have a very different definition
Agree, if you adopt a sufficiently broad definition.
Morality is game theory applied by ignorant and superstitious people.
Yeah, that’s definitely one of the biggest questions out there from a naturalistic perspective. Hell, even from a religious POV it’s fascinating though probably less necessary (we can always accuse you of having some element of the divine nature informing your morality, even if you’d say otherwise 😛 ). As far as I know, the current evo psych theory about morality is that it evolved as a cooperation mechanism to help humans survive and thrive, and our sense for the transcendent is an adaptive extrapolation of an Ultimate Morality as apex authority over, say, the strongest male in your local hierarchy. Little patchy if you ask me (especially the second part), but I’ve yet to hear a better theory from a naturalistic point of view.
Societal expectations mostly. Unfortunately the end result of that is those who lack character or integrity tend to throw their moral points away at the smallest hint that it will be tolerated. Again, Trump was a pretty good example of how people throw their masks off. Ignoring things like Bill Kristol admitting that he’d prefer bureaucratic authoritarianism to a democratically elected leader, how many violent rioters and antifa members probably loved harping on how they hate violence before they were in an environment where it is tolerated?
And again I pull from Seneca, who used to note that he found gladiatorial combat to be one of the most disgusting aspects of Roman society, but noted that he still felt the urge to cheer and egg them on when he was in a crowd of people doing the same. Groupthink is one hell of a drug.
Us versus them. Since the beginning of time. Until the end of time.
The only thing that varies is how we decide who is Us.
Easy. Us=hockey fans.
*high fives*
*drops gloves and high fives back*
Golfers versus hackers. I can put up with a lot of shit as long as people shut the fuck up when I am putting.
NOONAN!!
Do you use drugs?
Every day.
Good, so what’s the problem?
Hey, that kangaroo just took my ball!
The blue one, or the polka dot one?
My personal golfing motto:
I may not play well, but at least I play fast.
Personally, I think the natural follow up is what the natural human reaction to “them:” avoidance, or elimination? If the latter, how? Conversion? Killing? Subjugation?
Four options: avoid, cooperate, exploit, eliminate.
I read an interesting article comparing “warrior cultures” versus “survivor cultures”. When the primary goal of existence is to survive from year to year, cooperation has value (making it a plus-sum game). In most other situations, winning is more important (making it a zero-sum game).
OT: FT had a special equality of the sexes by focusing on girls supplement, sponsored by the Gates Foundation. The overall theme was overcome sexism by practicing sexism. Lots of sob stories about shitty countries and shitty cultures around the world. A couple of juicy tidbits-
Dutch legislator says US is harming the world’s women by not spending my money on abortion advocacy and access. Piss up a rope, use your own personal money, you socialist cow.
Being a Muslim girl in Britain and how everything was hunky dory until the attack on the Arial Grande concert and now there are anti Muslim incidents. First, I don’t trust any of those statistics the way not bowing down to jihadis is a hate crime. Second, Rotterdam? Let’s talk about the profoundly anti woman philosophy of Islam and its vocal advocates.
Another good institution taken over and used as a skin suit.
FT=Financial Times
No one attempts to extrapolate moral systems from the behavior of a pride of lions, or the “nature” of the undomesticated chicken. I would question why, exactly, “human nature” intrinsically generates a moral order from a non-religious point of view. It seems to me that the answer to that question folds into either some sort of social stability — which is a fine thing, but hardly an ultimate good — or a secular teleology virtually indistinguishable from and more unsubstantial than the religious, transcendental version.
Additionally, it seems like all or most of the religious traditions still kicking have some understanding of human nature *as well as* some understanding of how that nature’s current expression is errant — “sin” or “lack of enlightenment”, that sort of thing. The secular appeal to unreconstructed human nature seems lacking at best when we see how many god-awful things are motivated by perfectly reasonable biological impulses rooted in our nature.
So far in my readings of philosophy and history, the strictly secular version of natural law parallels secular social justice as objects of dubious philosophical value and debatable rationales for social consensus.
Shutup, Tulpa!
Heh. Is that guy seriously still kicking around and making an ass of himself? I figured the stricter moderation over here would’ve purged him…
It’s a joke. I haven’t seen you around for a while, so it was required. You must really be Tulpa. The real Tulpa would get banned here within the first 5 minutes, like shreek did.
Isn’t the modern Christian morality derived from a pre-Christian secular morality? Early Christians were well versed in the Stoics and Plato, to name a few. And the Christians also adapted Roman virtues in their iconography and beliefs.
Were Plato and the Stoics considered secular?
Honest question, I wouldn’t have thought so, but I don’t know.
From my understanding, the main difference between Western faith post-Christianity and pre-Christianity is the coupling of morality with the supernatural. Plato and the Stoics didn’t speak specifically to any particular faith (although the Stoics recognized a general god or gods), but spoke about how to live a ‘good life’. Whereas, the pagan faiths spoke about the supernatural and origin of the world, but moral teachings were not a central part (if a part at all) of the faith. Romans would be pagans, but then ascribe to some philosophical school to guide their moral actions. It’s complicated, because the Romans had their own state authorized morality with its virtues, but this didn’t cover all interactions and didn’t specify how a person should behave, just the attributes that one should attain. Christianity changed the whole concept by blending moral teachings with the supernatural. St. Augustine (who ascribed to the teachings of Plato for a time) discussed this in City of God.
From my perspective, pre-Christian philosophy and religion = two branches, same tree.
Greek philosophy starts from the pre-supposition that we have meaning and all of the other things inherent in a transcendental understanding of the world, and tries to figure out what our telos is based on that assumption. Plato’s Symposium exemplifies a work with these assumptions incorporated into the text.
Greek religion assumes that we know our telos well enough, and provides a map for how to navigate the spiritual forces which undergird the world to achieve that telos in the classic “don’t piss off the gods/get help from the gods” sense. The Iliad is a classic text showing good Greeks attempting to do just that.
Christianity just rejoined those two branches and added near eastern religious narrative of its own + the gospel of Christ’s life and sacrifice.
I think Nietzsche is right in saying that the Western world hasn’t properly responded to what secularism implies in terms of a complete overhaul of morality and ethics, if it is true. Our entire social structure is based on precisely the opposite assumption and hasn’t even come close to coming to grips with this realization.
Well, that’s a fair argument. But, there were multiple schools of Greek philosophy with some in opposition to the other. Are you suggesting that they were all informed by the Greek pagan faith? And the teachings of these philosophies were sometimes at odds with attributes glorified by the Greek pagan faith.
It’s less about Greek philosophy being directly informed by Greek religion (hell, if anything the reverse was true —
especially after 0 AD, when philosophical monotheism made inroads into the Hellenistic religion). More like, both came out of the same wellspring of core beliefs about the universe: humans are specially, transcendentally unique in our capacities, and this comes with obligations for conduct as beings with telos.
As a Christian, I of course think that Christianity merging these two categories of thought under one religion is all kinds of fantastic. That said, the idea at the head of our culture itself predates Christianity and has remained basically unchanged since the west had a civilization worth the mention. I’m not sure how (or if) we even go about constructing a morality or ethos as powerful, functional, or true with naturalistic assumptions as what we have under transcendental systems of thought. Neither does anyone else, actually, which is IMO why we have warmed-over liberal Christianity as the moral backdrop of Western societies, even while the liberal Christian is itself an endangered and emaciated species.
I thought that Greek philosophy is all about ass sex… oh, wait, never mind.
Interesting points. I’d like to read your thesis more.
Secularism isn’t particularly applicable to almost any pre-modern culture, outside of the odd individual or two. The greco-roman and near-eastern traditions early Christianity rooted itself expressed ultimate meaning and proper conduct as a derivation of the human connection to the transcendental origins of existence itself.
Yeah, I believe the gawds have been around ever since the dawn of civilization. The oldest man made structures we’ve found, I think the oldest are about 11 – 12 thousand years old, appear to have some type of ceremonial or religious purpose. At least that’s what the archaeologists say.
For every Thucydides (“ok guys, we all know the gods are real, but let’s just put that to the side so we can talk about what really happened”) there’s a dozen Herodotus (“every defeat is the will of the gods”).
Awesome job, keep it up. These are the things I get stoned to and wonder about.
Coriander is the seeds of cilantro. HTH.
Huh, I have some but never used. What’s it good for?
Bombay aloo. Just about any indian food, if you add other spices,
I’ve not experienced much Indian food…need to find a good spot for it in St. Louis. I’ve tried some curries from a Thai restaurant that were good.
Indian is possibly the only national cuisine that delivers a broad variety of palatable vegetarian dishes. It’s easy to cook – the only downside is that you need to invest about 10-12 different spices.
And yeah, as CL says below – it’s very good for pickling.
It’s also used in Latin American cuisine. A lot of people add it to pickling spices as well.
Mm…pickles.
It’s very aromatic. Next time you are cooking something and you want to add a spice, take a small bite of the food and sniff the spice. If you like the combination, add it into the mix. I’ve made coriander chicken before and really enjoyed it. I’m not at home so I don’t have my recipes in front of me. Some of us work.
*glares at Rufus*
Thanks! Good tip to know.
*takes bite of partially raw chicken breast with nutmeg on it*
*dies*
Darwin looms large, so large, boy.
Coriander can also work in peppercorn blends, and I use it as part of my chili powder.
Cumin is all you need, well not all, but it is the main ingredient for chili.
Cumin is in there as well, on top of paprika (half-sharp usually), cayenne and chipotle pepper, and a couple of other things adjusted based on the beer I’m using and the protein.
I use jalapeno peppers and chili pepper, and onion.
When I make chili, I’ll generally use onions, bell peppers, poblano, jalapeno, habanero, ghost chili, ground beef, the custom made powder (toasted in the dutch oven before grinding), and a good smoked beer (rauchbier).
Hmmm… the temperature is starting to drop, I may have to make a batch after Cleveland Beer Week is complete.
Wit bier.
“I am not a social constructionist, so I believe there are strong elements of human nature that are clearly innate, genetic.”
Of course there are and it’s mostly derived from a survival instinct. Constructionism certainly works to some degree. Just look at religion for a prime example. But it’s still preceded by and dominated by human nature. A person is only going to go along as long as they sense it’s best for their own personal interests. Take that away and people won’t go along. Ok, if you put a gun to a guys head, he’ll go along with something, until you turn your back on him and then he’ll go back to doing what he senses to be in his best interest for survival. Beyond survival, there’s sex and sleep, and booze. It’s in the best interest of the spirit to get some of those.
But as far as thinking you can ‘nudge’ the unwashed masses into the direction you want them to go based on some method derived from feeling superior, in other words ‘I know best for you, so just do as I do and here’s why’, that’s bullshit. It will just backfire. That’s why the commies always resort to violence.
The question being “what is human nature” and how does it balance with nurture (50/50 60/40 that sort of thing). Discuss …
Before having kids, I was 100% nurture. Now, I am probably more in the 50/50 range.
OT but I need to vent:
I have a big PITA thing due on Friday, and since it is not in my area of expertise, I need help with it. The guy who was helping me (who knows the answers) has I guess decided I am no longer worth his time and handed me off to a different person. She is of absolutely no help. I ask her questions, she stares blankly for a few seconds and then tells me she has to look up the answer. I never get an answer. She sends me spreadsheets which look like fucking Klingon to me and offers no explanation on their significance or even how to read them. She offers to give me detailed diagrams for my project, and then when I agree, she tells me nevermind, those diagrams would be too much work to create. I am not going to get this done on time and the blame is going to be laid squarely at my feet.
Paper trail? Or is your organization immune to having such things used in defense?
There is no paper trail. The wonderful cube farm means that everything is done face to face now.
Ugh. Pistols at dawn then.
Document (even if it’s in a spiral bound notebook) dates and times along with what happened and promises made. Make sure your boss is aware of what you need and why you aren’t getting it. CYA: send email reminder/recap of your conversation to the person and cc both your bosses. Or type the same as a memo and distribute accordingly.
This! Also, let the appropriate stakeholders for this project know immediately that you’re having trouble getting the necessary info and help required to complete the project.
FWIW, this is my life at the moment.
Coworkers who see my tenure here as limited (they’re right), and take every opportunity to shit on me if I try and fulfill the (now much-reduced) projects that I’m left with.
I have a Kanban (huge fan) that I use to track all the stuff that I’m meant to be doing, and the reason’s I’m cockblocked. What I do is send emails out in the evening to people I’m awaiting deliveries from (if it was during the day, people would wonder why I wasn’t asking face-to-face) and that establishes my trail. I tend to spread them out, but any given project that’s stalled gets an email every other day. I make it look like I’m clearing my desk daily, and the recipients can’t complain that I’m needlessly emailing them.
In my more reflective moments, I tend to fall back to thinking it’s all bullshit, but when they finally RIF me, I have a record of all the stuff that was being worked on, the culprits regarding why it wasn’t finished. I don’t want them stiffing me on a severance.
Did a brief google about the basics but would love to hear more about how you have it set up for personal use. Physical whiteboard/bulletin board?
Kanbans?
Many years ago, before technology took up the slack, I used a T-card system like you used to see at car repair places. Every job, create a card. Put it in column 1 which is the ‘To Do’ category. Once you assign it, you note the assignee, move it into the in-progress column. Easy peasy. Then, entirely coincidentally, I ended up in Japan working for a bank that had an engineering group that implemented a “three bin” system. Turns out that I’d been doing lean scheduling before lean existed.
Nowadays, there are nice we-based solutions that you can use for free. There are even ones that include an integrated pomodoro system, but I’ve always believed that pomo is most useful for spergy-types who are apt to forget to eat.
The real value in kanban is that when you use a computer based system, you can drag things around easily. When I’m running a big project using personnel from non-kanban businesses, I get a huge whiteboard, a couple of stacks of multicolored post-it notes and some dryboard markers.
Swimlanes and queues get drawn in, along with an explicitly noted work-In-Progress limits. When a ‘card’ changes status, it’s noted on the post it (in real small writing). Then the board is there as a discussion point when progress slips.
Do research. Learn things. Figure It out. Don’t blame your failings on others. Adapt and overcome.
Hume is cancer
David Hume could out-consume Schopenhauer and Hegel
But, Hume would be too busy trying to decide whether or not Schopenhaur and Hegel existed to out-consume them
Look at that picture of Conan on the front page, and tell me that he’s not a reptilian. You can’t do it.
“can a universal, objective system of ethics be derived directly from human nature?”
As an atheist/agnostic (whichever, I don’t care) that’s been THE big question I’ve pondered all my adult life. I have yet to see an argument that convinced me there could be, but I’m glad to read what the folks around here have to say about it. I like this post!
Of course. It evolved from the survival instinct. A feeling of ‘family’. And it’s no wonder which such a large brain that after humans became more sedentary and had more time to think instead of just surviving, that they started to develop that into a sort of code of conduct.
So, ethics derived from human nature essentially boils down to survival and propagation of genes? That make room for a lot of behavior that most humans wouldn’t recognize as ethical.
“That make room for a lot of behavior that most humans wouldn’t recognize as ethical.”
That’s also evolved over a long period of time with religious and cultural influences. But yes, I would say the original ethics, morality, things such as empathy all evolved from survival instinct. Survival pretty much dominated everything humans did for the first hundred thousand or more years. Of course there was sex. But not even any booze or internet, so pretty much only survival and sex.
Steve Smith, the moral apex of the survival instinct.
I don’t think that’s either universal or objective, though.
Also, aspect of the Weinstein sex rehab no one is mentioning. The fucker is headed to Europe just as talk builds about criminal charges.
We thought it was just because Europe has better
5 star retreatsrehab facilities.That and the smokin’ hot chicks.
I hear that Eastern Europia has some fine thicc.
Some mighty fine thinn too.
To be blunt, some of the finest poon I experienced was in Eastern Europe.
Some of the nastiest threats I ever received from boyfriends was in Eastern Europe too.
Somewhere in that set of experiences, a wise man could formulate some principles, but I’ll leave that as a thought experiment for everyone.
Uh, fake name, fast car and rubbers?
My name is Cyril Figgis.
John Cocktoastin
Well, fortunately, flight back to base of operations in different country, a stiff drink and note to self to not do THAT again,
Czech brothers can get SO protective of younger sisters.
Says the man who now has two (?) daughters.
Nah, just one,
Backstory on CZ is that she was in her 20’s. Old enough to make her own decisions. Her family disagreed. Put in that light, they should have been upset with her, not with me.
Please! The Norman Polanski Center for Troubled Teenage Girls and the Men Whom They’ve Preyed Upon is a world class operation! The lack of extradition is entirely because jail would interfere with the healing process.
Dammit! I was going to make a Polanski Euro vacation joke except that Gogo was being shittier than usual. If I
In the (((tradition))), the Talmud speaks of the “yetzer hara” (the evil inclination) and the “yetzer tov” (the good inclination) within each person. The yetzer hara is considered to be the inherent inclination of humanity whereas the yetzer tov is learned through maturity. In spite of their names, neither one of these inclinations are black and white; the craving toward food and sex are considered yetzer hara, yet are essential to the continued existence of humanity. Only when taken to extremes do they truly become destructive. Desire for violence, when channeled properly in a just war for instance, could be considered good. Conversely, yetzer tov can lead to disastrous consequences (the road to hell paved with good intentions etc.). Part of the challenge of free will is learning that these inclinations are part of the human psyche, but only by using that free will responsibly can we try to live up to a high ethical standard.
Every time I hear a snippet of (((tradition))) I can see why it’s been around for thousands of years.
Interesting. Maybe I’m completely and utterly off base, but “yetzer hara” and “yetzer tov” sound a bit like id and ego, respectively. Was Freud just academizing (is that a word?) (((tradition)))?
I still think that both of those terms describe something that has been around since the beginning. Good is when you wanted to protect and have affection for certain people because they were either your sexual partner(s), offspring or just other valued members of the tribe. Evil was when you felt it best to smash someone’s head or exterminate one of the other tribes and steal all of their stuff.
But in modern times, humans have very large complex brains and have way too much time to just sit around and think, resulting in coming up with all sorts of bizarre stuff. I mean just read some Clive Barker, or SF.
Now we have very biased manners in which to describe ‘evil’ or ‘good’. Evil is generally when someone you already don’t like, does atrocious things. So Hitler is evil (because right wing), but Stalin, Mao, and Che were good (because left wing). Good today means you saved a puppy, cuz feels good, or Twittered in favor of social justice and tranny rights, even though everyone knows you’re a self serving hypocrite. Bad today means you like free speech. I think that about covers it.
People’s brains are identical to 2000 years ago. Evolution isn’t that fast.
Humans have the need to eat and to do that they hunted, but after some time they learned how to satisfy hunger through agriculture – though some still claim we were better off as hunter gatherers.
I don’t want to sound superstitious, but please don’t invite it.
The only people who claim that have never hunted or gathered.
We call these people ‘idiots’.
The only people who claim that have never hunted or gathered.
But they’ve gamboled. Oh Dear God, but they’ve gamboled.
No one’s stopping them. They can abandon their shit and go enjoy that lifestyle any time they like. Why, they could even stay in Chris McCandless’ bus if they so desire.
Just don’t give them a cell phone so they can call for rescue in about 3 days.
Those of us who are lucky enough to be able to do so, are probably better off eating like hunter gatherers without the dangerous predators and frequent inability to find food.
That being said, anyone who actually wants to go back to living like a hunter gatherer could just move in with the pygmies or just go fuck off somewhere in the wilderness and leave the rest of us alone.
The big claim associated with that is hunter-gatherers worked less hours than say, a modern day office drone, but the data and study behind that is highly suspicious and only based on some of the remaining hunter-gatherer societies that exist today.
Also, peasants worked less hours annual than an average modern day worker, mostly due to a series of religious holidays, but no one is suggesting we turn back into a feudal system where the Catholic Church has massive amounts of corrupting power, besides Just Say’n.
It seems like Pink Floyd has already figured this stuff out for us.
You got to be crazy, gotta have a real need
Gotta sleep on your toes, and when you’re on the street
You got to be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed
And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight
You got to strike when the moment is right without thinking.
And after a while, you can work on points for style
Like the club tie, and the firm handshake
A certain look in the eye, and an easy smile
You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to
So that when they turn their backs on you
You’ll get the chance to put the knife in.
You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder
You know it’s going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you get older
Yeah, and in the end you’ll pack up, fly down south
Hide your head in the sand
Just another sad old man
All alone and dying of cancer.
And when you lose control, you’ll reap the harvest you have sown
And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone
And it’s too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around
So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone
Dragged down by the stone.
I gotta admit that I’m a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I’m just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don’t stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?
Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending
That everyone’s expendable and no-one has a real friend
And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner
And everything’s done under the sun
And you believe at heart, everyone’s a killer.
Who was born in a house full of pain
Who was trained not to spit in the fan
Who was told what to do by the man
Who was broken by trained personnel
Who was fitted with collar and chain
Who was given a pat on the back
Who was breaking away from the pack
Who was only a stranger at home
Who was ground down in the end
Who was found dead on the phone
Who was dragged down by the stone.
Wait, Pink Floyd was singing in english all this time?
There were words in those songs?
You have that backwards, my good man. Behavior (i.e., response to environmental stimuli) shapes evolution. Or to put it in terms Dennett-ian, evolution is the recursive (or is it iterated? I always get confused) algorithm in which environment is the input and genotype and phenotype are the outputs.
+1 mutation of morality
*shakes head politely in agreement*
*whispers* “What did he just say?”
Have you ever read Daniel Dennett’s Darwin’s Dangerous Idea? Even if one doesn’t agree with his conclusions, it’s a good read.
Maybe I will, but I was hoping for a flippant response.
Thanks for the book suggestion
I’d also recommend Not By Genes Alone.
You are a learned man, HM. Also, the first time I clicked on your links and it was SFW
Well, he’s speaking ex-cathedra, in a sense.
The freaks come out at night.
I read that one last year on your recommendation! It was very thought provoking; would agree with it being a worthwhile read.
Any recursive algorithm can be written iteratively. This assumes that DNA is Turing complete and operates according to lambda calculus. I’d argue that evolution would require pi calculus in which case things get a bit more complex, but you should still be able to prove demonstrate equivalence between recursive and iterative algorithmic forms.
They can do that with nofertrunions and spervings too.
That reminds me, I still need to send you that stuff on orthography and language acquisition.
Gwynapnaud @ gmail
I am one of the people who believes random mutation shapes evolution in the grand scheme,e of things. But I am not at all an expert in the field. But over all I think the human mind evolved with the human and this led to some inherent traits. Whatever drives this is of little interest to me.
“One thing is certain: ethic systems are generally based on a first premise – some basic axioms – which, cannot be easily claimed as universal. Not without extremly well though out arguments.”
What makes people different from other things is their ability to make choices and our consciousness.
If an asteroid were hurling towards the earth to destroy us, it would be absurd to talk about whether the asteroid’s behavior were ethical–because asteroids don’t make choices. Without the ability to make choices, there can be no ethics. Ethics thus, is an integral aspect of the ability to make choices. Once something can make choices, we can start asking questions about what choices should or shouldn’t be made. Isn’t that what we’re talking about when we talk about “ethics”?
That ethical systems (like libertarian ethics) would spring from the origin of agency itself seems quite natural, and I think that claim comes pretty damn close to being universal.
What? Even women have agency?
Twitter would beg to differ!
How do you create a woman? You start with a man and take away agency.
“…can a universal, objective system of ethics be derived directly from human nature?”
This goes back to our discussion about metric vs imperial. Morality developed out of utility. Any moral system must serve the end of a functional society. The better the system the more successful the society. This takes time and experience. Top down design from scratch is going to run into a lot of problems with unexpected consequences. Any top down design will have to be modified and in the end will look a lot like the system we have now.
See: socialism
I agree with this. I consider morality as a way to try to figure out how we can best get along with each other. As Sunthen said the better the system the better the society.
For those interested How Adam Smith Can Change Your Life: An Unexpected Guide to Human Nature and Happiness by Russ Roberts is sort of a cliff notes version of Adam Smith’s Theory of Moral Sentiments. I highly recommend it.
Eh I have a slightly different view which I will develop I hope (or is it Hoppe?) in a further post or two. I was sadly away from computer the last few hours while the discussion was going and the glibertariat has moved on to a new thread so I won’t go into detail
Also I want you people to notice that I do my best to write alt text
And a fine job you did.
Nature, aka genetics, defines the boundries of what is possible
Nurture, aka experience, education, socializtion, etc. defines where you fall within that envelope
So it is never as simple as defining a percentage as it is always both 100% controled by nature and nurture.
For example, all humans have a capacity for violence so as a thought experiment I am going to invent a scale that measures violent tendencies. The scale goes from 0 slugs to 20 slugs. At 0 slugs a person is an extreme pacifist, it is nearly impossible to get them to act or react to with a violent act. At 20 slugs violence is the first, second, and third solutions to any problem and it is almost impossible to get the person to respond to any situation with anything but violence.
What you will find is that your genetics at birth define a range of slugs that you are capable of, so you might be born and your genes gives you a range of 8 – 14 slugs. Short of traumatic brain injury completely changing your personality you will fall in that 8 – 14 range all your life, no amount of training, education, positive or negative feedback loops will ever allow you outside of that range. Inside that range however where you fall comes about as a result of your upbringing, you life experiences, the culture you were raised in, and so on.
As a non-religious type, I tend to follow the Louis C.K. method for my morality: When I was 10, I pushed a kid down on the playground and said “YOU’RE FAT!” When he started crying, I felt icky. I know what I did was bad when I feel icky.
Now when kids say “YOU’RE FAT!” they do it online, and they don’t see the reaction. Therefore, they don’t feel icky. This is ruining our morality.
I think the shoving was the bigger deal and that’s not present in the Internet example. I think people can be very callous online and I also think people blow shit way out of proportion. Words on the Internet can easily be ignored. Physical violence, not so much.
It’s a bit circular. Could just say “I know what I did was good since I don’t feel icky.” People do all sorts of things I find immoral but they don’t and vice versa.