One of the things that surprise me about people and politics is how little time they spend thinking about an issue. Actually thinking. Like you would think of a work problem, let’s say. Not that many people think about work problems, too many incompetents for that. But many a time I had a debate with someone on an issue, and a week later, when I asked again about it I got blank stare. They did not spend one more minute dwelling on it, thinking. I did, because I wanted to clear it in my head.
So that being said, it reminded me of some of the things that gave me thought when I started really thinking about politics. I wanted to see the general opinion of the Glibertariat about a couple of issues. Both times I started out pretty sure of myself, but actually thinking about it got me to at least be less certain. This is what made me realize that I actually have to think about these things seriously before forming an opinion, and changed the way I view issues of politics, economics etc. In this particular case both are issues of justice.
One of them can be tied to the whole common law versus roman or codified law debate. How much of law should be codified, what is the relationship between The Law as a philosophical concept and legislation, how strict or flexible should a piece of legislation be and how much leeway should courts have. How many laws should there exist codified, on the book? And how strict can these laws be?
How much can you trust a pure common law? Misbehavior by judges happens. How much can you trust a strict codified system? Misbehavior by politicians is just as often at least, and there can be a difference between theory and actual cases. See mandatory minimums.
One of the things about laws is that the need to be to a certain point clear and predictable. You must be able to expect an outcome, so you can behave appropriately. This makes it difficult to have no codified laws and leave everything up to courts – whatever these may be. In customary law, of course locals know the local custom, but laws can be more than custom of the particular area.
Strict laws can be inflexible but flexible laws unpredictable. Laws can start strict and become lax with exceptions and loopholes; this makes the system poorly performing, excessively complex and unfair, as exceptions tend to favor interest groups. My general idea is if a law requires an exception, it is badly made and it should not exist until crafted not to contain one.
My original position was that circumstances vary and as such laws should be flexible. This is countered by the notion that the law should be predictable and not too much subjected to the whims of judges. My conclusion at the time was that laws on the books should be simple, clear and few – only the absolutely essential ones. Only make them about absolutely necessary things. Keep them manageable and knowable. You can’t expect people to respect laws they do not understand. Not knowing the law is not an excuse is bullshit given the complex law code we have.
Where the courts come in is in having some flexibility on punishment – deciding guilt (was it murder or self defense? did the accused do it?), fault, mens rea and circumstances and the like. And covering conflicts that are not covered by codified law, but these should be less critical situations.
A second dilemma was about corrective, preventive, retributive justice. What is the goal? Rehabilitate the criminals? Discourage others? Punish the crime, irrespective of the first two? Or a combination of all three?
Originally I was completely against the idea of retributive justice, for several reasons. I thought that the main goal of justice would be to minimize crime and number of people in jail. Help criminals reintegrate in society. Retributive justice felt a little too much like revenge and prone to cruel and unusual punishment, and I did not believe it to be good to have the government in the revenge business.
Doubt crept into my mind when I read a defense of retributive justice by C S Lewis. The idea was that just justice is somewhat akin to “let the punishment fit the crime”. You did something wrong, you pay the price for what you did and that is it. You do not depend on judgments whether you are rehabilitated enough, or whether your punishing is enough to deter others sufficiently. The argument was that thinking mainly at prevention or rehabilitation moves the punishment from what is just to what the Government decides is useful for the previous stated goals.
The idea of retributive justice still makes me uncomfortable, but I cannot say it does not at least have a point. And I still mostly lean towards prevention, rehabilitation. As, while the punishment fits the crime sounds good and all, how do you determine an accurate punishment for a crime? Why 5 years in jail and not 3? Why a 500 dollar fine and not a 1000 dollar fine? What is fair?
She;s a witch!
Correction. She’s a witch!
FEEELZZ!
Ehm?
I was channeling the people that think the best way to make a legal system work is to make it all about the feelz.
“The idea of retributive justice still makes me uncomfortable, but I cannot say it does not at least have a point. And I still mostly lean towards prevention, rehabilitation. As, while the punishment fits the crime sounds good and all, how do you determine an accurate punishment for a crime? Why 5 years in jail and not 3? Why a 500 dollar fine and not a 1000 dollar fine? What is fair?”
Maybe we should go back to a legal system that held people financially accountable for their criminal behavior? Rather than locking people up and paying a ton for them, we make them repay society with hard work? And the more they have the more society can charge them? I am just bandying ideas here and trying to be progressive and woke about the solution.
Maybe but for certain crimes isolation from society may be needed. Also i am of two minds on public flogging or the stocks.
Agreed. I want to mention however that the most important thing about any legal system to me is that the system treats people equally, especially when it comes to the political class. When the politically powerful & connected can get away with murder while sicking that same system on their political enemies, the system has failed.
–Starship Troopers
As for a restitution based legal system, I love the theory of it, but see lots of problems in the implementations. I mean, if I already have nothing, and am in piles of debt, what’s adding more debt on top of that going to do?
That’s the thing Nephilium. A system that just adds debt wouldn’t work. I think the premise is that you will be forced to labor or find a means to provide restitution. Yeah I can see this going real bad. In China they have a whole industry where the system conveniently finds lots of guilty people from which they can harvest organs for their quite lucrative pay-to-play organ transplant system.
I think what it boils down to that there will never be a perfect system, one that is both just and not prone to abuse, simply because of the inherent flaws of the people manning that system. And that is why I am so averse to these systems that want to control everything. I for one will not give up freedoms for the illusion of security. And have no doubt that it is all an illusion. Bad shit will always happen. Life is neither fair nor free of worries.
I would be in favor of forced labor if the state gets nothing out of it. The laborer gets enough money to cover his expenses and the rest goes towards the damaged party. If the offender has marketable skills that pay more than forced labor, they could pay their debt that way and forgo forced labor.
When the state enforces the laws, how can you prevent that system from being taken advantage of by the state, huh? After all, they will tell you it is for a good cause….
I have no answers for reality because I have no influence on reality. No system created by humans can’t be undermined by other humans.
This is what I was getting at with hybrid although I forgot about the restitution to the victim part
This is effectively turning most crimes into torts and bringing back debtor’s prison.
I note that this is approximately the system we had prior to 1800 or so.
You would almost need to reinstate the concept of the debtor’s prison, and same as the forced labor for restitution, I don’t see that going well either. I think a lot of the problems with the current system is the prosecution of victimless crimes.
Not necessarily. If one cannot pay the $100 fine for example, a flogging or humiliation option could be used. We can even make it so that one chooses their punishment via coin, dunce cap or the whip.
Ordeal By Snu-Snu.
That does not Fempute!
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised.
You have one asset which is – relatively speaking – valuable to almost everyone, and that’s time,
If you have no financial assets upon which to fall back on, then public service which denies you the use of the one asset you still do have, may be appropriate.
This however does nothing to address the miscarriages of justice and outright lunacy that might have put you there in the first place, for committing “crimes” which harmed nobody other than yourself.
I think that distinction was already made obvious Number.6. We are discussing the real crimes, the violent ones against others, not the stupid shit where the state arbitrarily is trying to control individual behavior that harms no one or only harms the person doing the shit to themselves. I would prefer a system that wouldn’t lock up people for doing drugs, but was clear in telling them they were totally on their own when the shit they were doing hit the fan. You own the consequences of your choices and all that. Of course our busy body society of today would never approve of such a system and the people in charge much more prefer a system where they can play the role of the proverbial parent telling the petulant child what they are allowed to do and what is not allowed.
Cruel and unusual has a different meaning — which Heinlein surely knew. Having the state permanently mark or disfigure someone is one of the major prohibitions of this as it is understood in American justice. And rightly so. As with the death penalty, the price of wrongful conviction is to permanently prohibit someone from ever rejoining society as a full member.
The old idea of restitution seems to make some kind of sense to me. If someone breaks into my house while I’m away and stills $5000 worth of stuff. Make them get a job and compensate me $10k over, say, 2 years. It doesn’t help me if they get caught then locked up where my taxes are paying for their upkeep AND they’re learning how to be a better criminal.
But, I think Pie is right that some people need to be locked up to protect society. This is why the sex offender registries are bullshit: if they’re so dangerous they need to be on a list, then they need to be in prison. That said, obviously the number of people in prison needs to decline a lot.
“This is why the sex offender registries are bullshit: if they’re so dangerous they need to be on a list, then they need to be in prison. That said, obviously the number of people in prison needs to decline a lot.”
Older societies with more limited resources didn’t bother locking these people that simply couldn’t be allowed to be in normal society up, but isntead used an alternative solution. One that many today consider barbaric in its finality, but their solution seems to me to be more fair to the normal functioning members of society in general. Maybe I am a hard case, but I value the freedom of the individual more than the right for the usual frightened idiots to keep their illusion of security going, depriving the individual of their freedom, or worse, criminalizing them for arbitrarily shunned behaviors. And yes, I do worry about the system failing and innocents being run over by it, but in general I am not one that feels sorry for those that simply can never function in a free and normal society.
They also had the concept of the outlaws, people who were not protected under the law at all. From Slate Star Codex:
Yeah, we seem to be having a problem these days with a religious movement that considers non-believers and even women to be worth less than the chosen believers under their system of laws. The ultimate outlaws I would say.
For a second there I thought you were talking about progressives.
Not sure there is a difference there WTF…
I don’t understand why prisons are not work-centered. Nothing like slave labor or a gulag, mind you, but about creating something of worth with one’s time.
My question about rehabilitation in the justice system is how many offenders actually need rehabilitation? Most criminals, I bet, already know that what they did was wrong even when they committed the crime. More often than not, crimes are committed for economic reasons, so would rehabilitation include job training or some kind of welfare program? In which case why shouldn’t those programs be extended to every low-income person for the benefit of preventing crime. And then it would seem that you just end up with the welfare state again.
So what would rehabilitation entail and how does this differ from just another welfare scheme?
I think there is a political party that believes that if they pay off enough of these economically deprived people with a large welfare state they can prevent crime, but I have so far not seen that work very effectively Just Say’n. In fact, I would posit that the system put in place robs people of their dignity and honor, making it far more likely that they will end up tempted to commit crimes to get what they believe is the share of the spoils they are owed.
I don’t disagree and that’s what I was wondering. What does rehabilitation mean?
I suppose you could consider prison chaplains to be a rehabilitation system.
Are they? Or are they there to serve the religious needs of the convicts?
How often do prisoners have ‘come to Jesus’ moments where they change their ways? I really don’t know.
And that is the issue I have with rehabilitation Just Say’n. My research and gut feeling is that it doesn’t happen with any serious enough frequency to be a big factor. The problem I have is that sometimes people do find something that changes them – religion or otherwise – and a system that denies them that chance is thus lacking. But what is the cost vs. return. And yeah, we are talking about people and lives here, so the whole economic model might not fly well today when life is supposedly not considered to be cheap. If you hold the individual and the freedoms of said sacrosanct, this becomes even more complicated.
My research and gut feeling is that it doesn’t happen with any serious enough frequency to be a big factor.
I think that’s true. But, I wonder if it isn’t just as much a matter of the prison sentence rendering them unemployable.
We still talking about people that commit violent crimes, right? I don’t know, but I wouldn’t want the liability of someone that has shown a penchant for commission of violent crimes being on me, and if I worked for an employer that gave work to people that had committed violent crimes in the past and I was then a victim of anything from that person, I can see many people that are just inconvenienced invoking the new American Dream – getting a lawyer and filing a lawsuit with the employer where the money is anyway – to cash out. Can you imagine the violent ex-con actually does something nasty and how that plays out?
Our zero tolerance for failure society doesn’t leave much room for this to ever do anything but go wrong.
You might be surprised. While I worked at the jail there were about a dozen or so inmates that consistently took advantage of their allotted hours with the chaplain. Most of those guys however, were in for silly crimes and If they were truly dangerous the chaplain performed the service behind the safety of a 400 lbs steel door.
How many of these are people that want to avoid the ass pounding they could be getting when in the general population?
You don’t go to the chaplain if you want to avoid the ‘ass poundings’, you join a prison gang.
How many of these are people that want to avoid the ass pounding they could be getting when in the general population?
What JT said.
Never been to prison, but I am not certain I buy the prison gang thing sparing you an ass pounding..
I dont really know cause it does not seem to work often. But time away from.society in jail combined with some sort of labor I would say
Most criminals, I bet, already know that what they did was wrong even when they committed the crime. More often than not, crimes are committed for economic reasons,
Real talk Just Say’n: How many people who were charged with and went to jail for violent crimes do you know?
Violent crime? None
Maybe, I am interpreting this through middle class googles. Do you think that most criminals do not realize that what they did was wrong?
Unless they have a serious mental disorder those committing violent crimes would know they were doing something wrong.
The majority I’ve known never consider what they did ‘wrong’ and generally have a dysfunctional moral view of society as a whole. It’s shit like “Yeah, I almost beat that guy to death, but he was looking at my woman funny so he had it coming”.
This is the credited response. There are some criminals who may be rehabilitated, and the current system is not designed to accommodate them. The majority, however, are recidivists because their morality is miscalibrated. This is not currently possible to correct but it is possible to develop a system to deal with in a way that doesn’t resort to perminant incapacitation.
This is not currently possible to correct but it is possible to develop a system to deal with in a way that doesn’t resort to perminant incapacitation.
So, the Ludovico Technique? It didn’t work that well for Mr DeLarge.
This is the consensus view social scientists that study the issue, and is in line with my experience in my younger, rough and tumble days.
Steven Pinker calls it “self help justice.” In fact, most people in jail for no-shit, honest-to-go violent actions think that what they did was right. A shocking large number (to me) of people that commit murder call the police and report what they did.
Why would we ant to let someone like that back out into the wild, I ask…
But, does rehabilitation include ingraining philosophy in these inmates? That might be valuable, but I doubt that would occur.
Who’s philosophy, yours or mine, joker?
Kant’s
Wont’s…I’ll show myself out.
Rehab’s almost never about ‘ingraining philosophy’, it tends to be more largely focused on the assumption you make that crime is primarily based on ‘economic reasons’ so it prioritizes skill sets that they believe will ensure that the prisoner is capable of a productive living.
Do you not believe that their warped morality is a product of their economic position?
Not when I’ve known consistently good poor people and consistently bad ones as well. Upbringing and psychology seem to be bigger factors.
I am with you John Titor..
There are plenty of poor people that will not resort to crime, and quite a large number of people that are totally well off committing some of the most heinous crimes you could imagine.
This is because the basis function of morality is inherent in biology.
I think it’s quite possible that many criminals do not consider the ramifications of their crimes at all, and hence, the ‘wrongness’ of the crimes they commit may not be as stark.
“middle class googles”
Perfect John-o.
For violent men, rehabilitation means keeping them away from society until their testosterone levels drop. I would also be in favor of them having at their option the choice of military service.
I doubt that the modern military would be in favor of enscripted “Penal Batallions”. We’ve come a long way from giving a violent man a pointed stick and a shield, and expecting him to do the right thing.
We have enough overseas bases that if they go AWOL, it’s no longer our problem.
Also, it’s voluntary, not conscription.
It doesn’t address the issue that modern militaries are not designed to be sinks for criminals with a moral code which is somewhat inimicable to polite society, and their skill sets aren’t usually adequate for modern military technology, although unlike many of the recent female recruits to the US Military, most of them will be capable of getting thru’ the physical part of Basic.
Obviously they aren’t going to be highly trained. They’ll get basic training and basic weapons. They would be used to clear caves in Afghanistan or garison troops.
Cannon fodder!
Unless your end goal is to effectively use them until they die throwing violent people into violent environments just normalizes their behaviour.
garison troops
Horrible idea. Individuals with pre-existing pathologies make for terrible garrisons.
You could genetically modify them and send them off to man the Attack Ships off the Shoulder of Orion until we manage to build Nexus 7’s.
Other than that, I think everyone would be better off if we left them in the SuperMax lockdowns.
Individuals with pre-existing pathologies make for terrible garrisons.
Nothing brings out the worst in soldiers like garrison duty. They are essentially heavily armed strangers who are completely unaccountable to the people they have power over, who by the way are their enemies.
Certain people were pissed enough over having contractually-assigned merceneries in Iraq. Can you imagine the outrage if we put a bunch of convict draftees in South Korea?
That’s the case most of the time. It’s often some kind of impulse control issue. One woman was in prison for stabbing someone nearly to death. The inmate was at this person’s house with her baby, and this person was acting crazy and putting the baby in physical danger, so the inmate stabbed her several times. She recalled, “I just wanted to make her stop; I didn’t mean to do all that“.
Sometimes they’re in a psychotic state when doing these things (either from mental illness or drugs). One woman got high on cocaine and heroin, then woke up in her car a few days later having driven well into the next state. She didn’t remember anything, but had vague memories of scrubbing blood off the floor. It turns out she had gone into a frenzied state, demanded drug money from her grandmother, then bludgeoned her to death with a skillet when she refused to give it to her. They found her body stuffed into a plastic storage tote in the garage.
In my experience – with women, anyway – the true sociopaths are a small percentage of offenders. Most of them are pretty remorseful. Of course, there are a lot of them who insist that someone else (a boyfriend, or bad friends) pressured them into committing the crime.
More often than not, crimes are committed for economic reasons, so would rehabilitation include job training or some kind of welfare program?
Or you can just ship them off to New South Whales. I’m partially joking, but doesn’t that kind of make sense from a libertarian standpoint – some number of years of prison-like indentured servitude followed by freedom on a colony?
This is sort of shifting from justice to economics, but I think it has applications for justice as well. There is an argument that it is better for economic regulations to be more focused on retribution than prevention. The reason it is makes it easier for people to experiment and try new things, while still providing justice should it hurt people. For example, if the goal is to make sure moving companies don’t steal stuff from their clients, the retributive line of thinking would say to punish those who do hard enough that it discourages future theft. The preventative line would require all movers to go to mover college, take mover ethics exam, have a government supervisor, require all moved items be categorized and placed in a database to ensure all are accounted for, and generally clogging it with so much red tape that it prevents anyone from stealing. If someone steals anyway, it just proves that you did not have enough red tape. Obviously this significantly raises costs and significant;y restricts freedom, while the retributive model paradoxically actually increases freedom compared to the preventative model.
THAT WHICH IS NOT MANDATORY IS PROHIBITED.
On common law v codified/statutory law.
This is a tough one, IMO. Common law is (relatively) bottom-up and has a more evolutionary/incremental aspect to it. It is also (much?) harder to say for certainty what it is – you almost have to be a lawyer who studies and follows the never-ending and voluminous stream of cases. It also, for better or worse, tends to be more indefinite, relying on case-by-case analysis, squishy concepts like reasonableness, and so forth. These characteristics can be positive or negative; I think that the origin of common law – in a small, very culturally uniform society (England) was a setting that emphasized the positive. In a large, culturally dis-unified society (like, say, the US) you are likely to see the negative emphasized. The 9th Circuit v the 5th Circuit, for example.
Statutory law can also, as it has, grow out of control so that its hard to say for certainty what the applicable law actually is. It also tends toward arbitrariness, which gives certainty but also results that in particular cases don’t sit well. Look at the ongoing debate here about sex with teenagers – ideally, one supposes, it would be case-by-case – is this teenager sufficiently mature to give good consent. OTOH, the statutory rape laws give certainty – she’s under 16, you’re going to jail. It makes staying out of jail easier and more controllable.
What about the scope of the law each system creates? Common law tends to issue narrow rulings/rules, statutory law sweeping new mandates/prohibitions, but let’s not forget that judges can issue sweeping rulings indistinguishable from new laws – abortion rights, gay marriage, and school desegregation come to mind. Both systems act like bureaucracies – they have built in ratchets to increase their own power and scope, and thus the power and scope of the government they are part of. There are exceptions, of course – legislatures can deregulate and legalize, and courts can strike down laws – but I think the general tendency is toward more bigger government control.
Which relies on a better system for promulgation? Legislatures, as we are well aware, are infested with bought-and-paid-for cronies, and ever will be. Elected judges, though, can be every bit the bought-and-paid-for crony that a legislator is – there are some jurisdictions that are famously in the pocket of the trial lawyers who lavishly fund judicial elections and routinely hand out results that are, well, unjust. Appointed judges avoid the bought-and-paid-for thing, but they are appointed by the very same politicians that we don’t want making the laws. And, with life tenure (which varies – federal judges have it, state judges may or may not), you can embed judges who are seriously out of step.
One thing legislatures can do that courts can’t is create agencies, though. And that might be the tie breaker in favor of courts over legislatures.
I’m no lawyer, but I would prefer clearly written laws that apply to everyone. Obviously the weakness in this system is who writes the laws.
If the goal is to maximize Liberty it is best to rely on a distributed system of law because centralized systems are inherently more vulnerable to attack. Common law is a distributed law system. Statutory law is a centralized law system. It really is that simple.
I don’t know enough to really have a debate. If distributed law means I have to guess what the local law of every podunk town I drive through, that’s an issue.
In the extreme, that could be possible. There are mechanisms to limit that, stare decisis being one and the notion of jurisdiction being another. For example, if the jurisdiction extends only as far as the town’s borders and there is no mechanism to nativize their judgment in your home jurisdiction – just keep driving. See also voting with your feet. It is better to have locally ‘bad’ law than globally ‘bad’ law even if globally bad law is predicable.
I could see a mixed system working. Maybe have statutory laws against cut and dry matters-
Violent crime, theft.
Make the rest a common law system. Anything that needs to be done outside of of those can be done by precedent developed through a court system.
Either way though, people are going to be involved who can be influenced. Maybe we should draft legislators and judges to help keep corruption to a minimum.
I also see a mixed system. A constitution that has clear basic law for all the land and then courts for everything else.
OT: I’m late again, But I did see your Boiler and it looks great, is it a Hydronic coil or Forced air? Either way would be pretty cool if you have lots of free wood,
Great Job, HillBilly HVAC! fuck yea!
It’s forced air. The radiator in the pics is in my ductwork past the A coil for my central HVAC. There is a thermocouple in the water tank of the wood burning unit. When the water gets below setpoint, a fan kicks on and supplies air to the combustion chamber, allowing the fire to burn and heat the water back up to temp. when the water reaches temp, the fan kicks off and the fire smolders.
A water pump pumps the hot water through the radiator in my duct work. I have a mercury switch thermostat in the house that turns my blower off and on when heat is called for.
One problem with common law that libertarian-types never discuss is that it evolves, but it selects for the efficiency, not justice. Sometimes they are the same thing, but often times not. My go-to example for common-law done right is when you are 9 years old, you set your backpack down on the table before getting into the lunch line. Some asshole pushes it on the ground and takes your seat. You go to the principal and say you put your backpack on that on that table and everyone knows that saves your seat. Principal agrees because he knows everyone knows that and you get your seat and maybe Johnny gets a talking to.
But common law can enshrine, or create on its own, horrible injustices while selecting for efficiency. Years ago, when Wikipedia was a new-ish thing but has been around for long enough to develop a bottom-up governing structure, my brother in law decided to use his PhD expertise on some obscure weather phenomena to improve the webpage for that phenomena. After all, wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, right? Bull. Shit. He got into an edit war with a dozen neckbeards that didn’t know shit about the weather but were masters of wikipedia’s byzantine rules and regulations. All of these, of course, were explicitly allowed to autogenerate based on one libertarian dude’s reading of Hayak.
Common law is the enforcement of what all right-thinking individuals think. Look around at the grab-asses asserting to be today’s right-thinking individuals and know fear.
IANAL.
Maybe some hybrid system half jail for some.crimes where.you have a tracker on you all the time and you have to be in a jail cell 7 pm to 7 am, and tre rest you can hold a job. Part income to pay for the jail part in an account that uoi get when you get out. So all social fun part of.life restricted by night confinement alone but you can be part of the labor force an mayne reintegrate easier.
In AZ they utilize a furlough system. You leave the jail in the morning, go to work, and come back to jail by the curfew. A warrant for arrest becomes effective after the curfew. I’ve only really seen this used for DUI.
I can see this works for DUI where you would want the person in question to remain productive..
It’s pretty damn common in Arkansas. They call it work release. The chicken processing plants hire prisoners all the time who can qualify for the program.
I read an article about that a few months’ back. The implementation seemed to be pretty exploitative. Not saying it;s a bad idea though.
I do seem to remember that NOBODY was earning minimum wage …
It could be exploitative. And I have read articles where it has been. As far as i know, in my state, it is a voluntary system and a special privlege to inmates. An inmate has to meet certain criteria to qualify for it and if he messes up will have the privilege revoked.
It would seem to me that for a certain subset of ‘loser-grade-criminals’, discovering that they are at least capable of doing a mundane, (if somewhat gruesome) job might be a very positive influence on them once they’re paroled.
Now I am worried my chicken has been “tenderized” by some prison bitch…
A rework of the justice system to have High- and low- courts could result in new, innovative sentencing for lower court proceedings, I guess. Roughly analogous to felony and misdemeanour the way they were handled until about 40 years ago, from what I understand.
There’s a judge on the east side of Cleveland (Painesville, OH) who offers people alternate punishments. From wiki. A small sample:
Interesting how common law has diluted laws against political corruption down to the point we’re at. You can basically take all the payoffs and do all the favors you want – but as long as you don’t have a written documentation of your intention to do favors in return for gifts, you’ll get nothing more than a slap on the hand. The Judge explains.
This is the one thing I find is the most illuminating about a legal system Drake. When the political class has created a system that puts them above the law and the common man gets abused by that system, there is no more rule of law.
So yesterday on Staff’s post about intersectionality, I wrote down the post from an acquaintance whose response to my complaint about Senator’s wanting to raise the age for cigarettes was basically, “We can’t allow everyone to make decisions for themselves because it might hurt them and society.” My response to him was basically explaining the nature of government power and how giving government more laws to regulate people’s diets and vice habits has always harmed those who were able to defend themselves. Here’s his really long response:
The cigarette age is not at all the same as the War on Drugs. The purpose of the War on Drugs was to target minority communities, and with biased policing and unfair sentencing due to racial bias, it had a horrible impact. This is why debate, research and evaluation are all part of the policymaking process to refine or eliminate laws that do not provide the stated objectives of the policy. The cognitive dissonance that occurs in policymaking is when policies are mischaracterized and used not for the public good, but for other purposes. As an example, recently it was released that Nixon’s actual motives for the War on Drugs was to criminalize blacks and hippies. http://www.cnn.com/…/john-ehrlichman-richard…/index.html The problem in this case is destructive partisan and racial politics and representatives that do not rigorously debate and honestly evaluate policy impacts.
There are also policies that actually do address problems and make the world better. The Clean Air Act improved air quality around a lot of metropolitan areas and has had positive impacts on public health. The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) has slowed the growth of premiums and provides greater access to preventative care and on the whole has been positive. This does not mean decent laws do not have flaws. As the health insurance market adjusts (and companies try to make money through political means, like Aetna threatening then following through on pulling out of healthcare exchanges without economic reasons if the Justice department doesn’t approve a merger), further decisions have to be made to refine policy to improve it and address flaws. But there are several efforts to advocate for the few at the expense of the many. Corporations that want to push their negative externalities in production want to pollute without penalty, so they try to change the laws or undermine their enforcement, even if the law is good and protects civilians. The “tax reform” effort right now is another example, where many Republican mouthpieces claim that it is a middle class tax break when a majority of households would see an increase in their taxes. This is factually not the case, and when people do not properly evaluate a policy due to political motivations to deceive, they hurt the public.
Your false assertion about the Left is based on a false assumption about government, specifically that minorities are hurt by government because the government is inherently racist. What is accurate is that minorities are hurt when laws are unevenly enforced (both by government actors and civilian actions) or when laws themselves target communities of color. This is not the fault of government itself, but of the actors involved in each case and a reflection of society as a whole for not addressing inequality. Government also has mechanisms for restoring justice through the courts when government actors do not properly enforce the law or when citizens break it. The problem is if the society is unjust and does not apply the law or ignores evidence to justify injustice that makes it less likely for the system to operate properly. This is simply the government reflecting the inequality of society (this may seem like I am splitting hairs, but it is profoundly important).
Historically though, the rule of law has been ahead of the curve in pushing toward equal enforcement of the law. Brown v. Board pushed discriminatory law toward equal protection, even when popular opinion was still segregationist. The Bill of Rights allowed for protesting and demonstration against unjust laws that over time were eliminated. Government is not the savior, but it provides a forum to seek justice based on laws, and historically has been instrumental in moving the needle toward equal protection even if it still does not reflect the ideal circumstance.”
And he had more but I don’t want to burden you guys with three more threads about the topic at hand. I should enter the whole thing as an article and let you guys pick it apart.
They refuse to admit government is bad. Even when it’s destroying our communities
Because if he admits that, it would call into question his whole philosophy. People want to believe that they are good but also right and the moment you try to challenge what they think of themselves in that regard, they will double down on their stupid shit.
When old time religion was replace by the collectivist dogma, promising heaven on earth by the all might government, these people that switched what altar they worship at replaced the old benevolent all powerful deity with government. They then proceeded to make fun of those that believed in the old time religion and their whole concept of heaven and hell and so on. Admitting that they are also just as wrong in assuming the inherent goodness of big government and its ability to create heaven on earth would make them not just hypocritical douchebags, but darn right dumber than people that they believe fell for the idea of a perfect system of rewards and punishment in the afterlife.
In short, the morons that believe in government as the provider of heaven on earth will never admit they are wrong because it would prove them far more stupid and easier to manipulate than the other plebes they spend so much time looking down on. After ll, if there is no old time or new time religion, then wtf is the meaning of life, huh?
police are racist
police should be the only ones with guns
This is where you decide if someone is worth arguing with or not. Arguing with someone who is not interested in the truth, regardless of the result, is pointless.
Sounds like some asshole twisting themselves into a pretzel to justify totally arbitrary and a faulty logical fallacy to me man. These people tend to be real good at justifying some of the most horrible shit ever when it is convenient to their cause. See the nonsense they spout when arguing on the Franken vs. Moore treatment of the accusations, the accusers, and the accused.
I forgot that Nixon was the only president that waged the war on drugs. I guess when Congress got tough on crack I was dreaming when a bunch of black legislators were demanding action in their communities. I guess I also hallucinated when Bill Clinton signed those bills.
Why are you standing in the way of the rewrite of history to fit a narrative, huh Just Say’n?
Because I’m ‘literally Hitler’
You are the Nick Gillespie of literal Hitlers
That’s freaking low man…
You son-of-a-bitch. I am the best literal Hitler ever!
P.S. Thank you for joining my effort to “Make Nick Gillespie an Insult Again!”
You’re the white people of Hitlers.
“You want to know what this was really all about?”, “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
-John Ehrlichman
I’ve seen that quote a lot and I don’t deny that the War on Drugs was used in the Nixon administration (and all preceding and proceeding administrations) to prosecute enemies, but two things about Ehrlichman. (1) He said this after serving time in jail and getting pissed that Nixon didn’t pardon him. He hated him ever since. And (2) there was already a ‘War on Drugs’ before Nixon. The administration just created drug scheduling after a court case ruled the previous scheme for outlawing drugs to be illegal.
No Nixon fan, but there is a lot of nonsense that is laid at his feet. Let’s just blame him for the actual bad stuff he did: getting us off the gold standard, continuing the war in Vietnam, and Watergate
Yes. Californa started the war on opium because it had had enough of the Chinese coming to “Gold Mountan” long before Nixon was born. The quote is illustrative, to me, of the inherently bad nature of any prohibitionist policies. I keep it saved in my external memory, and find it amusing that the author of the screed above used it as a counterexample of how a prohibition on smoking could be a good thing. Take a look at the people who are ‘known’ for smoking and ask who benefits from an expansion of further government interference in their life. Personally I believe the drug war was a brilliant political move I’d readily attribute to Nixon and his team, he was an astute politician. Further, if you listen to his many hours of recording it is clear he’s no fan of the proles.
Ah, I see your point. And, as you say, most laws against drugs were created, in part, for bigoted reasons. “Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got that Way” was probably one of the last documentaries from the History Channel that did not have to do with Hitler. It was very informative
I’ll see if I can dig it up on the intertubes. I particularly like the Ehrlichman quote for when I get these hard blue old heads agreeing about how the war on drugs is great because it is better for the poor and for healthcare reasons etc. I just bust that out because most of them were also rabidly anti-Nixon watch them squirm trying to justify carrying his water. Scores much less points with newer generations who don’t know or don’t care about Nixon.
good lord.
did it?
Possible that it did. Of course the premium on a $5,000 deductible plan with 20% copays is going to be lower than the premium on a $500 deductible plan with 10% copays.
What matters isn’t premiums. What matters is total out-of-pocket.
yeah. I suppose that’s a truthy enough statement. it’s just not capturing the whole reality.
so cig tax affects the poor more than the rich. why is he in favor of regressive taxation of the poorest of people?
Rich people can afford their own medical treatment when they get sick, and the plebes can’t… DUH!
sugar-drink tax and cig tax will reduce consumption!
taxing employment and a higher min. wage won’t have any affect on employment!
Ah, so laws are bad if they had bad intentions* when passed. I assume then that he is fervently against the minimum wage, which was also based on bad racist and sexist intentions and has had a horrible impact?
*I’ve never heard of a road paved with good intentions leading anywhere bad
Yes, the War On Drugs was started by Nixon. The War On Alcohol and The War On Marijuana are completely unrelated and not a precedent for anything whatsoever.
So I notice that while the original subject was cigarette smoking age, he never actually addressed that specific topic.
Typical passive-agressive dick move. Should have gutted him right there.
I didn’t respond to his statement because he wrote another four paragraphs and he’s not worth arguing. Like I said yesterday, he absolutely believe in majority rule….as long as it creates the results that he desires. I think what makes me so angry about him is that he’s constantly on his FB page crying about racism and all of that other stuff but is willfully blind to the fact that increasing government power only results in more of the shit that he cries about.
just start posting quotes from the glib quote article!
“Fuck off slaver.”
“Fuck you, cut spending,”
“The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) has slowed the growth of premiums ”
You should have mentioned earlier that he was a liar.
Probably sounds crazy, but maybe banishment needs to come back. Send violent convicts to prison island and let them figure things out.
Snake Plissken! Paging Snake Plisskin!
An excellent “how to” film.
I’m reminded of George Carlin’s solution. Pick 4 rectangular states that abut (UT/AZ/NM/CO) separated by mesh fencing with gates between them. Every Saturday, drop weapons into one or more states, open the gates, and sell the video rights to the highest bidder.
What happens whren these people start kneeling during the opening ceremony and the [playing of the national anthem, huh?
So, Coventry?
I dated a few chicks from the town in “The People’s Republic of Connecticut” of said name, and I think they were all dystopian and nuts… 🙂
Just like most of their sisteren in the rest of the state then ….
Pretty much.. I need to move to go see if I can find me some better people it feels like..
I got my U-Haul booked and ready, dude.
#6.2 is 18 months away from college. After the bullshit he’s been subjected to over the last few weeks, I wanted to move yesterday.
where to?!
Not sure where we’re going yet. Out of the colder states, and most likely, south of the Mason-Dixon. I have my white seersucker suit ready, and y’all would approve of my (studied) Southern graciousness, if I need to turn it on.
LSD is in DFW and is likely to become a naturalized Texan. #6.2 is likely to stay in New England for business or might end up at Hillsdale, MI doing something principled. After that, he’s currently inclined to live somewhere east of the Mississ’hip.
So my money is on TX, with a possibility of Western NC/SC.
My essential idea on justice is that criminals can’t be deprived of their rights to life, liberty, or property against their will–they must forfeit those things willingly.
Most of us probably hold similar positions, it’s just that we don’t describe it in those terms.
We might use a term like “mens rea”, meaning that you can’t have committed a crime unless you meant to commit the act in question. I would even argue that in crimes of negligence, it should be necessary to prove that the defendant willfully disregarded other people’s safety.
I would further define “crime” itself as having violated someone’s right or rights, and a right would be defined as a choice. Rape, for instance, is a crime because the victim’s right to make a choice was violated. Theft is a crime because property itself is defined as something that someone gets to make choices about–who gets to use it, how it’s used, etc. Violating the right of the property owner to make those choices is the crime.
The crime of one adult selling an intoxicant to another isn’t really a crime at all if no one’s right to make a choice was violated.
Thus, the true purpose of a jury is not to violate some criminal’s right to liberty by making it okay for the government to use force. The true purpose of a jury is to determine whether the defendant willfully forfeited his or her right by willfully violating someone else’s right or rights.
There is something like a social contract to this, but the contract is not between the people and the government. The contract is between individuals and other individuals. That contract holds that we are all obligated to respect each other’s right (to make choices for ourselves).
Notice however, . . .
It’s strange under my theory to say, in civil court, that after it’s determined by a jury that a defendant has violated a contract, then it’s okay for the court to violate the defendants rights by making him pay off the plaintiff. How can the court really “force” the defendant to do something that the defendant willfully agreed to do when he signed and dated the contract
Criminal court is the same way. When the jury unanimously decides that there was mens rea and the defendant willfully violated the victim’s rights beyond a reasonable doubt, the court’s sentence isn’t something that’s really forced on the defendant. Because of mens rea, the court has effectively found that the defendant willfully accepted the consequences of violating the victim’s rights when the defendant willfully violated that person’s rights–just like someone who willfully breached a contract. The court is merely enforcing the criminal’s own choice.
I suppose I should add . . .
There is some inherent force necessary to this justice system, but it isn’t in the application of sentences.
It’s in compelling witness testimony, compelling the presentation of evidence.
I don’t see perjury in court as force, necessarily. If you willfully violate someone’s rights through false testimony, you’re committed a legitimate crime of your own will.
Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.
Oh no, don’t do it..
I disagree. Due Process is far more important than whether an individual agrees to the punishment.
Who said I was against due process?
The legitimate purpose of government is to protect our rights, and one of the legitimate purposes of the courts is to protect the rights of defendants.
The whole point of Due Process is that you don’t have to agree to the outcome. You can, in fact, be deprived of your liberty and property without any willingness on your part, and nobody is going to say shit about it because you had a fair opportunity to confront your accuser, see all of the evidence they present about your criminial or civil violation, present a refutation of said evidence, and have either a jury or a judge (your choice) determine your guilt. And you get to appeal the initial finding. But you don’t get to opt out of it. The Social Contract doesn’t require your agreement.
Again, I think you’re missing an important implication of mens rea.
What does it mean, and why is it an essential part of a legitimate crime?
Maybe think of it in these terms:
What’s the difference between criminal fraud and civil breach of contract?
The correct answer is mens rea.
What’s the difference between vehicular manslaughter and accidentally running over a kid who ran out in front of your car chasing a softball?
You willingly chose to get drunk and try to drive home? The correct answer is mens rea.
What’s the difference between murder and shooting someone in self-defense?
The real answer is mens rea. If your life was in danger, then you didn’t really have any choice in the matter–so you can’t be held criminally responsible for the choice you made.
The point is that the real definition of a crime is choosing to violate someone’s rights. The willful part of that choice is so essential to the real definition of crime, that you can’t commit a crime without it.
When libertarians think of what justice means, we should absolutely concentrate on the implications of that fact. Being convicted of a legitimate crime requires the prosecutor to prove that the defendant willfully chose to commit that crime, or, in other words, you can’t be subjected to criminal penalties for your choices without willfully choosing to subject yourself to them.
One of the reasons we have juries is because the government can’t deprive you of your rights. A jury of your peers is not the government. That’s what “peers” means.
One of the reasons we have mens rea is also because the government can’t deprive you of your rights. You have to forfeit them yourself. Sometimes, that may come across like the government forcing someone to abide by the terms of a contract, but that is the contract.
We are all legally, contractually bound to respect each other’s rights.
That’s where natural rights come into the question. Where do our rights come from and what are they?
The question of what they are is partially answered by where they come from. Our rights arise naturally as an aspect of our agency–our ability to make choices. Once we have the ability to make choices, other choice making people are obligated to respect that right to make choices, and, furthermore, we are bound to make choices that respect the rights of other people. Once we understand that our rights arise naturally as an aspect of our agency, the fact of what our rights are becomes obvious. If they arise from our agency–our ability to make choices–then our rights are the right to make choices.
Everything else you’ve heard is bullshit.
Thus spake Shultzathustra.
You can, in fact, be deprived of your liberty and property without any willingness on your part
Mens rea means you intended to do the act, not that you agree with the legal consequences. I think you are confusing the “willfulness” of the criminal act with “willingness” to suffer the penalty.
Here’s the way I put it that got it pretty close:
“Being convicted of a legitimate crime requires the prosecutor to prove that the defendant willfully chose to commit that crime, or, in other words, you can’t be subjected to criminal penalties for your choices without willfully choosing to subject yourself to them.”
When someone breaches a contract, no, they don’t want to pay the penalty for that, but by willfully violating the contract, they do open themselves up to judgement when they willfully decide to violate the contact–even if they’d rather not suffer any consequences.
Crime is the same thing. When a jury decides that you willfully violated someone’s rights, they are saying that you willfully subjected yourself to the penalty of law–even if you dread paying the piper and you’d rather get away with it.
The state and the government in those situations are not subjecting you to a punishment by their authority.
You, the defendant, chose this situation. You’re found guilty and sentenced as a result of your choice (AKA mens rea). This is what it means to be found guilty with full mens rea. You willfully intended to violate someone’s rights (or willfully disregarded other people’s rights in the case of criminal negligence), and in doing so, you opened yourself up to the penalty of law–by your own choice.
I understand that mens rea isn’t usually thought of in those terms, but that is a foundational aspect of mens rea. If you can’t be guilty of a legitimate crime sans mens rea, then that means you can’t be subjected to the penalty of law–unless you choose to subject yourself to it.
Why not embrace that implication of mens rea? It’s just sitting there, real as anything and twice as libertarian. You can’t be subjected to criminal law unless you willfully choose to violate someone’s rights and subject yourself to criminal law. Isn’t that as it should be? Isn’t that why we condemn the denigration of mens rea by way of regulation, etc?
Mens rea really means that the true purpose of a criminal jury is to decide whether the defendant willfully subjected himself or herself to the penalty of law.
criminals can’t be deprived of their rights to life, liberty, or property against their will
Voluntary punishments for crimes? I have my doubts on that one, Ken.
The true purpose of a jury is to determine whether the defendant willfully forfeited his or her right by willfully violating someone else’s right or rights.
My willful violation of someone else’s rights is not the same as saying that any punishment imposed can’t or won’t be against my will. I can forfeit my right to life, liberty etc. by willful action, but the decision to take that action is not the same as the decision to forfeit my rights. Otherwise, criminals would commit a crime and go straight to the police to be arrested, because by deciding to commit the crime they had also decided to forfeit their rights. Forfeiting rights is a consequence of a decision, not the decision itself.
Also, no crimes of negligence? Not sure about that, either.
The legitimate purpose of government is to protect our rights, and one of the legitimate purposes of the courts is to protect the rights of defendants.
Indeed, and the way the government protects my rights is by imposing punishment on those who violate my rights. The courts are there, essentially, to insure that the right person is punished. “Due process” is what we call the procedures to prevent the wrong person from being punished. Courts aren’t there to protect the right of the guilty to not be punished, they are there to prevent the innocent from being punished. An innocent has the right not to be punished, the guilty don’t have the right not to be punished, they have the right to a fair trial to determine guilt.
I may have screwed up a tag there.
Blimey!
And if the edit fairy kisses it, everyone will respond to that rather than what I wrote.
When I saw the tag fail, I unzipped as a precaution.
Be careful.
You might end up praying to unsee.
We had a pot luck at work today.
I’ll give you one guess as to who was doing the organizing & setup. Bonus points for who was first in line.
The patriarchy lives!
Jim Jones?
If so, have the coffee. The soft drinks are kinda yuck.
I don’t participate, so no worries.
Was it a failed painter from Austria?
Too soon! TOO SOON!
He was good at organizing unified social events and making people form lines though …
Even built them some special resorts where they could check in but never leave..
But I hate the Eagles, man.
Whoa! Jinx.
Don Henley – literally Hitler.
Got the idea from the Eagles, I guess.
Al Franken?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIXeCvphrPA
Musings on Justice
I read that entire article and didn’t see one bit about social justice, the most important justice. Pie, you are not woke.
Ouch…
I think he needs “rehabilitated”
I am trying real hard Lachowsky, but I need a PoC to teach me but I can’t have them enact my labor. It is truly a paradox for the ages
The best case for retributive justice is to prevent vigilantism. You hurt mine, I hurt you. I may be willing to forfeit my desire for revenge if I can receive justice through the courts. You don’t give people at least some retributive justice, people will get their own.
What a cynical, depressing, offensively low bar you hold humans to. Also, I agree. People are maniacs sometimes. Better to give them no reason to riot than it is to tamp down on rioting.
Justice is about making sure people don’t have a legitimate reason to riot, assassinate leaders, engage in cultural warfare, etc. Because dealing with that shit is worse than installing the social apparatus to seek justice.
This is why you might see me narrow my gaze at the tactics of BLM, but not at their overall issues. Don’t want BLM? Don’t let your cops treat people like shit. Doesn’t matter if they treat everyone like shit and BLM thinks its just black people. Doesn’t matter if 50% of the population think you walk on water just because you have a lip caturpiller, aviater shades, and a badge. Treat every single person like a human and you own’t get BLM.
OT: TSA Sucks!
TSA is the Nick Gillespie of government bureaucracy
Wears the same thing all the time, enjoys rummaging through people’s stuff, and makes people spread eagle in his presence?
You know Nick better than others here I presume.
All true points, I’m sure, but I was mainly referring to the dictionary definition of ‘Nick Gillespie’.
Nick Gillespie (adj.)
(1) an object or person that is lame or pathetic
(2) an object or person that is leather clad and douchy
(3) an older person that refuses to age gracefully
Eg: Everyone in the meeting agreed that Tom was the Nick Gillespie of the company after he failed to meet his sale projections for the third quarter in a row.
“Make Nick Gillespie and Insult Again!”
Jesus Christ, just ask him out already.
For shame, I thought you of all people, Titor would get behind my campaign
There’s a difference between ‘making fun of Old Man Gillespie’ and ‘Just Say’n being tsundere’.
I mean, I get it, I used to love me a good ol’ hate fuck, I used to have some great time with lefties before they started to charge everyone with rape…
You guys got exactly what you wanted.
You wanted to be treated just like us boring, staid old white heteros who can’t even look at another person without being sex criminals.
:p
Prevented a bomb from getting onto an airplane –
TSA: No
Gillespie: No
Skilled podcaster able to concisely ask interesting questions –
TSA: No
Gillespie: No
Bumblefucked thinking cause by exposure to Washington groupthink:
TSA: Yes
Gillespie: Yes
Wears stupid clothing, attempting to compensate for crippling inferiority complex:
TSA: Yes
Gillespie: Yes
Ok gang, this checks out.
OT (again… I promise I’ll read the actual article when I have the proper amount of time to ruminate on it):
I don’t think my Dr. prescribed a strong enough antibiotic regimen for my Lyme this spring. For 2.5 weeks now, I’ve felt like I have a mild flu. It’s not contagious, and my fever only spikes in the evening, but I’ve felt like I was on the last day of the flu for 2 weeks now, which is just like I felt from Lyme this spring. Dr sent away for a blood test, but she’s not very confident that the results will be useful. Next step is an infectious diseases specialist. The non-doctor in me says just prescribe the same thing for twice as long and make sure it’s dead.
Of course it ended up here. ?
always appropriate.
If the only laws on the books were about crimes with an identifiable victim, then I could see a statuary law system working fairly well. A very small and concise legal code would be ideal. I don’t know how to get from where we are now to there though.
Armageddon?
The Libertarian Moment?
this book gets mentioned by me way too often here, but again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline_and_Punish
worth reading if this subject interests you
short (probably badly paraphrased foucault) answer:
‘sort of like how weddings are less about the bride and groom, and more about validating the parents and allowing them to preen’…
“Punishment” isn’t really necessarily about fixing the criminal (corrective) and its not really about making the victim whole (restorative), and often its not even really ‘punishing’ the perp at all (ever wonder why we seem to fret so much about making the (@#*)@ Death Penalty *absolutely painless*?)….
….and the degree to which it is preventative is hardly ever measured or given any particular thought (ever notice that we apply the same exact ‘punishment’ – incarceration – regardless of the actual type of crime committed? thieves used to have their hands cut off, which was a straightforward-enough fix for both ‘retributive’ and ‘preventative’. but why do we treat thieves and rapist the exact same way, albeit simply incarcerate them slightly longer or shorter amounts of time?)
which makes you wonder…. what *is* the point?
via wiki: “” Foucault builds a case for the idea that prison became part of a larger “carceral system” that has become an all-encompassing sovereign institution in modern society. Prison is one part of a vast network, including schools, military institutions, hospitals, and factories, which build a panoptic society for its members. “”
i don’t know if that’s really that helpful. The way i’d characterize it is that prisons are merely an extension of implicit power that we allow to order ourselves. Authority is *assumed* to be constantly observing us and measuring us, like some bureaucratic Santa Claus. Even when the authority is invisible we assume it to be controlling and limiting our behaviors.
shorter, maybe: prisons exist as a formalized extension of the law-abiding-citizen’s imagination of what already guides and controls their behavior. We already follow prison-rules; you only go to prison when you stop recognizing them.
i’m doing a terrible job of paraphrasing this (*i did read it 20+ years ago) . anyway, read the book, its interesting.
This. Read Foucault. Very big in modern criminology, even more so than Bentham or Beccaria.
So you like Foucalt sometimes, but you probably don’t like him other times. Convenient
That tends to be how people analyze different thinkers?
I wouldn’t characterize Foucalt as a great thinker. Most of his conclusions are flimsy
Didn’t say ‘great’, just that his analysis has some degree of merit, and regardless of your views on it it’s still relevant because of how influential his ideas are overall in the field of criminology.
Sounds like critical thinking to me. Ain’t nobody that has nothing but great ideas and thoughts. You sift and winnow, take the good, synthesize with your own thoughts, etc.
Gilmore and I sparred on this a month or so ago. In the main, Foucault is as unreadable, and gaseous as all the other postmodernists that infest society’s asshole like a billion blowflies, but D&P is seemingly an exception, that gains him some respect from Gilmore (and seemingly others), and a partial exemption from me, having only a Cliff’s Notes-level appreciation of D&P.
Let’s not forget, that in his wheelhouse, even Chomsky has some credibility, hard though that is to believe.
Foucault’s bad enough in French, but trying to translate him into English just makes him worse.
Titor doesn’t like Camus, but Foucalt is good. Canadians- go figure
When did I ever give my thoughts on Camus?
You said in a previous thread a while back how Canadians are forced to read Camus and how he was the Nick Gillespie of French authors or something.
I love it when people get competitive over who’s the most authentic Nick Gillespie!
*squee!*
I don’t think I did, and I’m pretty sure I was never forced to read Camus…
Might have been Rufus because Quebec, I’m from English Canada where we spit on French authors. Instead we’re forced to read stuff like Stephen Leacock.
For the record, I do not think Camus is the Nick Gillespie of french literature. I enjoy his work
My mistake, Titor
Your racism towards Canadians makes you think we’re all the same. Shame on you, we’re more than just interchangeable flappy heads.
You’re all hosers to me
Yes. For all the shit Foucault (sometimes rightly) gets, D&P has some very interesting and worthwhile ideas on State power and punishment. And while not agreeing with Foucault on all of his conclusions, if you want to talk about state and social power and you haven’t read at least some of his books, you’re probably missing out on some intelligent arguments for and against.
Was it a failed painter from Austria?
Now, hold on a minute, Hitler was an excellent painter .
Hey! You were the one who brought him up. I could have been referencing any number of other failed painters.
which makes you wonder…. what *is* the point?
It sure as Hell isn’t about compensation for the victim, or making him “whole” again. It infuriates me to no end when I see the New York Attorney General or some such blowhard puffing his chest and bragging about how he has extorted large sums of money from kkkorporate wrongdoers, to be deposited in some government account, as if that in any way provides relief for the people who may or may not have actually been “swindled”.
Also worth reading:
Scott Alexander’s book review about ‘Legal Systems Very Different Than Ours‘
also, his follow up post where he quotes lots of it.
He cites a wide range of historical examples of legal systems which were more “restorative”, in the sense that criminals compensated the injured for harm done.
If I can’t make a citizen’s arrest for it and charge someone, it shouldn’t be a a law.
I.e all federal laws.
So I was thinking for a second about cosmic justice and realized the universe is inherently unfair half an hour ago when I though I overcooked the piece of filet mignon I was going to have for dinner, but in the end it was perfect so maybe the universe is not 100% bad. Belgian blue cow is edible I can confirm
My thermopop was saying 136 of your Fahrenheit degrees and I was gaaah but it was just close to the surface in the center it was a decent 125. I should really buy a sous vide gizmo to not have these issues with a pan. I am to lazy to use the oven. And with a pan there is a ring of gray surrounding the properly cooked center.
Try browning it in a pan then putting it in your oven on high broil for 3 minutes on each side (longer for bigger pieces than a single serving). When you get it out, put a pat of butter on it, and wrap it in foil paper. Let it stand for a minute or so, then give it hell.
Also a nice red wine from Puglia worked well
Regarding rehabilitation (apologies if this was addressed already) – I know someone who works in a jail who totally disbelieves in it. He’s told me that it’s a bunch of recidivists who make up about 80% of the population at any time. They get out, commit more (usually low-level) crimes, and go right back in. The 20% are people who come in once, and never return. His point was that those who can be rehabilitated do it themselves, and for those that don’t, no amount of outside effort would be worth it.
from here
Why Norway’s prison system is so successful
In Norway, fewer than 4,000 of the country’s 5 million people were behind bars as of August 2014.
That makes Norway’s incarceration rate just 75 per 100,000 people, compared to 707 people for every 100,000 people in the US.
On top of that, when criminals in Norway leave prison, they stay out. It has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world at 20%. The US has one of the highest: 76.6% of prisoners are re-arrested within five years.
I wonder how immigrants are counted or not there …. But they do seem to have low rates. Then again what is the prison rate of Americans descendant from Norwegians
Anders Behring Breivik got 21 years for murdering 77 people.
Hardly a success.
Then again what is the prison rate of Americans descendant from Norwegians
Raiding and pillaging rates up 40% from the general average, arson towards monasteries up 15%.
That was something I seem to remember from some studies I read up on years ago.
Recidivism levels across what is commonly termed “The Anglosphere” seem to be stubbornly independent of the level of resources and cash thrown at rehabilitation programs.
I remember the number as being nearer 70%, but I could be wrong. That, or the recent disproportionate incarceration of victims on the War on Drugs (and their inevitable subsequent arrests and re-incarceration) account for the disparity.
When a Swede told Milton Friedman “among Swedes, we have almost no poverty.” He replied “We have almost no poverty among Swedish descended Americans, either.”
… heh. That wily old (((man)))
Oops. Replied to the wrong post.
His ‘80%’ was basically him using the 80/20 rule.
I don’t think justice is achievable at a societal level anymore. There are so many laws – and so complicated – that it is impossible to go through the day without breaking some them. Most of these laws have nothing to do with actually harming another person. There are very few who recognize this, and many who do are pleased with that status quo. It allows those in power to have leverage over people. All they have to do is a little research and they can find something to ding you on and then hold it over your head to extract something from you.
In a perfect world, most laws would only govern how the government interacts with the citizenry. Neutral arbitrators would decide the outcomes of all disputes, including those between citizens and the government, as well as between citizens. We will never see a perfect world, because that would require perfect people. Even if we wiped the slate clean, it would only be temporary, just as it was at the founding of the United States.
Jefferson paraphrased – liberty always gives way to tyranny over time.
This is the problem with all social things, only as good as the people in them. If people think it is justice for the tribal council to order a 14 year old raped cause her brother insulted someone, there is not much philosophy can do… But I enjoy the discussion. As a libertarian I have little hope of most things I believe in to ever be implemented
As a libertarian I have little hope of most things I believe in to ever be implemented
Yup. I am 100% confident I will never see a minarchy in my lifetime. If I see a smaller less intrusive government in my lifetime, it will be after the catastrophic fiscal->economic-> social collapse.
So, March 2018 then ….
To the extent that we have power, we are the guy on the chariot reminding Caesar that he is neither omnipotent, nor omnsicient, but a mere mortal, while the commoners are screaming “io triumphe!”
the universe is inherently unfair
You don’t always get what you want, and you don’t always get what you need. You just get what you get.
I said the beef was ok so the universe gets a pass
You get what you get, and you don’t throw a fit!
The older I get, the more I prefer the law of the jungle.
It isn’t that I favor barbarism or hate society, it’s the fact that I really can’t take seriously anyone’s concepts of justice if they don’t even know how to even mildly defend themselves.
And this is because people are too lazy and arrogant to think their actions through. If they can’t think their own actions through, they cannot think anyone else’s actions through and they can’t think through the consequences of a proposed law.
Every law is enforced with violence. The only difference between that and the law of the jungle is that the law of the jungle requires personal responsibility. All other law systems are effectively just outsourcing the violence – which ultimately favors the most sociopathic of the bunch and requires everyone else to twist themselves into the stupid notion that coerced taking of money and property is not theft if you merely call it “taxation.”
His point was that those who can be rehabilitated do it themselves, and for those that don’t, no amount of outside effort would be worth it.
I hate to say it, but I suspect this is 100% correct.
Also applies to education. Like the above point about the amount spent on rehabilitation not affecting the results.
A brisk 3 mile jog down to Ballast Point and an unfiltered Sculpin IPA. https://twitter.com/egould310/status/931605385252712449
It’s a rest day, so will walk back home. Maybe a beer or two on the way home.
I’m going to Karl Strauss later today.
*makes beer drinking motion*
Today is the beginning of 9 days off work for me. It’s also looking like the weather will be nice enough to stand in line for some rare releases at an Akron brewery on Black Friday.
The wife and I are going to Indianapolis in March to see my family, and then we’ll cruise up to Cleveland/Akron to look at some rental property and visit more family. Do Cleveland Glibs get together for beer drinking?
There was a fellow Clevelander who mentioned meeting up in an Eastern suburb once, but I haven’t seen anything else. I’m more then willing to meet up with anyone else here who wants to lift a pint (or three). You’ve got my e-mail still, correct?
Roger that.
Ever been to Phantom Carriage? Highly highly recommend. https://yelp.to/qTKq/9RyOPrpG9H
Great beer. Good food. Punk/metal blasting loud. Horror film motif. ??? ?
If I ever get a chance. I have this weekend in Carlsbad without the kids, so I’m doing Strauss today, and if I have time, Stone tomorrow.
Beer on, amigo! ?
Drinky drinky
Friday is wine day not for beer
PiTS, thanks for this post (and your others) BTW. Its good to give some of these big-picture issues an airing. I mean, I like abusing politicians and their sycophants, toadies, flunkies, enablers, hangers-on, and useful idiots as much as the next guy, but the occasional break for philosophizin’ is welcome.
Well we have all those daily links for that. But I appreciate getting some feedback on ideas, sadly I do not get as much as I like from my as the kids say IRL friends
*PieintheSky tilling the fields by hand with his fellow peasants*
“Hey guys, ever think about argumentative ethics?”
“Pie, shut the fuck up before the Vampire Overlord feeds another one of us to his brides.”
There are many times that I find myself in deep thought about big issues after reading the links and comments. More than once have I found myself on Thursday reflecting on a link from the previous weekend:
No, no, number 3 is nice but 13 looks naughty. Nope, 3 it is. Oohhh, I forgot about 22….
OT, not-so-humblebrag.
50ft, Slow-fire target, 9mm with iron sights. Shot a 91. Glad the SRO of the club had his spotting scope, because I shot out the bull.
I shot a gun once. Could have been shot myself. Thats all I got
But fortunately, you’re still with us, presumably intact.
And able to challenge us with this thread. Thanks.
Funny story the rule on the range was always keep the gun forward. The female friend I was with was shooting and an ejected cartridge somehow landed in her boot and burned her and the reaction was a swing of the gun to the side where i was sitting. But the instructor was behind and caught her arm. Sadly the guy dies a year alter when some asshole decided to go to the range for a murder suicide, shot the instructor then killed himself.
Ugh, that’s horrible, but yeah, poor muzzle discipline is one thing we all have to watch out for.
This being America, doing Range Officer duty when women are out there shooting is a constant concern, although the intersection of SJW rape-accusers and female shooters is minimal, so “laying hands on a woman” isn’t quite as dangerous to do as one might think.
Pretty good shooting. I find that the length of my barrel really affects my accuracy – that sounds like a pretty damn good day for me with the 5″ barrel, and a frickin’ miracle from God with the 4″ barrel.
So, how long is your barrel, Number.6?
Ahem. Wasn’t even a revolver. CZ 75 SP-01, so 4.7in. It’s slightly pimped out, but the real change and difference in accuracy was because I finally practiced what I have been preaching.
I got some non-corrective shooting sights, so I can barely see the target, but the front sight is totally in focus.
Oh, and one-handed, like all target pistol should be. (And, I ain’t mentioning the other 4 targets I shot at)
Ugh. Not shooting sights. Shooting glasses.
One-handed? Now I’m really impressed.
I use the two handed-grip on Morte Tuam (the full-size .45 with double-stack mags); for Li’l Morty (the 9mm carry pistol), I vary between one and two hands, but my accuracy is for shit with one hand.
I have a link for that NK defector and his parasites. I saw a different source for this was linked in the AM links, but this is the one I read yesterday, and this stood out to me:
My first response was, that does sound malnourished…but then I thought, what does all mighty BMI say? Well with a BMI of 22 this man is perfectly healthy!
BMI is a tool of International Socialist Oppression!
Well healthy for a French peasant from 200 years ago.
TW/NPR
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439
Speaking of justice…
Can police legally obtain your DNA from 23andMe, Ancestry? You betcha!
http://www.ajc.com/news/national/can-police-legally-obtain-your-dna-from-23andme-ancestry/8eZ24WN7VisoQiHAFbcmjP/
Yeah, I saw a forensic files a while back where they did that with ancestry.com. they found some distant relative but had no idea what the relationship was so it did them no good. At some point they’ll take your dna at birth. For the children.
I kicked around that idea a while back. Now I’m glad I didn’t go through with it.
Man, who could have foreseen that the “third-party doctrine” was going to be a slippery slope?
Hmm, this part’s kind of important:
It doesn’t sound like there were any warrants, and it was more of an informal “can we get that?” followed promptly by “no.”
Don’t ask me how I know….
I can assure you with 100% confidence that the DNA samples sent to those companies are abso-fucking-lutley traceable back to the individuals who supplied them.
All it takes is a warrant, or an employee willing to supply the sample – and a part of the sample can be on its way to a crime lab.
Let me tell you how a professional does it.
http://nbc4i.com/2017/11/17/ohio-governor-candidate-says-he-had-relationships-with-50-women/
I was just coming in to say something about this. First reaction – HAHAHAHAHAHA. Second reaction – as much fun as it’s been seeing shitbags I hate get swept in the #metoo typhoon, this is getting fucking ludicrous. So a judge writes a rather silly statement ostensibly to defend Franken in order to brag about how much tail he’s gotten, and people are demanding his resignation?
That’s the way to get at least 50 female voters, right?
That could also be a way to ensure that 50 female voters never vote for you.
Demonstrating the best way to nuke your political career from orbit? Check.
These girls have to know that there is no way this stuff is going to stay secret, so are they trying to self-destruct?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/17/married-teacher-and-jv-cheerleading-coach-23-arrested-for-sex-affair-with-teen-boy-student.html
I’m tempted to sign this petition, just because I think Keith Ellison is the perfect “prog harder” choice for Al Franken’s successor. OTOH, Minnesota’s a blue state trending red (inverse of Virginia), so would their governor appoint a guy with Nation of Islam ties (JOOOOOS) and trust him to hold the seat in a special election?
I despise Franken, but this “I saw Goody X dancing in the dark with the devil” stuff has gone too far.
Would a Dem governor dare to buck the intersectional entitlements of a black Muslim?