I just read that article in the NR about Yuri Dimitriev. It is amazing to me that the horror of what the communists did in the Soviet Union is still hand waved away, even here. At this point there is a mountain of records of mass killings. It’s staggering that this most pernicious ideology is still very much with us today. When somone says that they are anti capitalist and want to nationalize industries, this is somehow acceptable. I heard this today even. It doesn’t seem much different from someone advocating national socialism, it reeks.
End rant
thrakkorzog
on October 12, 2017 at 12:27 am
It depends on what you mean by ‘here’. Most glibs view the fights between nazis and commies as international socialists vs. national socialists. ‘Why can’t they both lose?’ And the death toll by the commies in the 20th century completely dwarfs the Nazis.
But Ironically the commies had a better marketing team. After all, nobody needs more than one type of socialism.
Brochettaward
on October 12, 2017 at 12:33 am
It’s really hard to underestimate the role of public education/media on everyone’s perceptions of reality. Our schools are fundamentally progressive institutions. We spend countless hours teaching about the Holocaust. I’ve probably had to read Anne Frank’s diary like 5 times. By comparison, the Cold War is barely taught. It’s the last chapter at the end of the semester in high school, and maybe a week gets spent teaching anything on what happened in Russia internally.
Mustang
on October 12, 2017 at 1:54 am
I remember hearing a lot about the atrocities committed by the Nazis but hearing more about US Cold War policy and almost nothing about the atrocities committed by the Soviet Union and I graduated public school just over a decade ago. I don’t recall ever hearing about gulags or anything of that sort. We mostly just studied things like Vietnam and protests but not really why we were ideologically opposed to the Soviet Union aside from MAD.
John Titor
on October 12, 2017 at 12:43 am
I think national socialism also comes off worse because:
1. The sheer brutal Teutonic efficiency of the death camps. It was basically an industrial assembly line of death.
2. We actually got to see and record the inside of concentration camps firsthand, whereas the most we have of gulags are accounts from prisoners. Camps that do get fully exposed (a la the Khmer Rouge) are only defended by tankies.
3. In the case of most Western countries, they actually fought Nazis, and war propaganda extends for decades after the fact. The Soviets, in their more mushy ‘Cold War’ quasi-enemy stance, or the Chinese, in their later quasi-ally stance, don’t fill the same role.
Brochettaward
on October 12, 2017 at 1:02 am
These seem like rationalizations to me. I didn’t see death camp footage – the most gruesome stuff – until college. Despite years of Holocaust education. In American schools, the Khmer Rouge and communist China are barely footnotes to what you learn. Ideological affinity by those who set the agenda explains far more here to me. The Nazis were unprecedented in their awfulness for a short while.
If I were looking for a fairer reason, it would be the lack of class time. But, if propaganda were the answer, I’d think half a century of the Cold War would have rectified it. Nothing is more galvanizing than emphasizing the atrocities of your opponent. FDR fundamentally changed domestic politics, though. Progressive politics became the starting point for any political conversation after WW2. The scale had been tilted heavily to the left.
John Titor
on October 12, 2017 at 1:31 am
In American schools, the Khmer Rouge and communist China are barely footnotes to what you learn.
And did America fight the most destructive war in human history against Cambodia and China?
The Nazis are cemented into Western history because they play a central role in an ultimate conflict between authoritarianism and freedom. That is why they are taught in American schools, because they’re far more relevant to U.S. history than some Cambodians murdering people with glasses. Communist influence was subtler.
But, if propaganda were the answer, I’d think half a century of the Cold War would have rectified it.
War propaganda and Cold War propaganda are not the same things. One is demonization of a direct and present enemy with the bodies to prove it, the other is a nebulous opponent you are vaguely in competition with, but not in direct conflict.
John Titor
on October 12, 2017 at 1:34 am
Also, considering that the Russians are basically the only people on the planet you can outright portray as immoral monsters without being called xenophobic or racist I think you underestimate its effectiveness.
Brochettaward
on October 12, 2017 at 1:43 am
That is a very recent thing based entirely on the 2016 campaign. When the Cold War ended, Russia didn’t become a real political football again until Bush the Lesser. And that was towards the end of his second term. And then the media was perfectly willing to side with Russia. Probably just a reflexive impulse they hadn’t quite gotten over.
John Titor
on October 12, 2017 at 1:58 am
It’s not that recent or based entirely on the 2016 election. A couple years ago you’d think the Russians were marching homosexuals into concentration camps or throwing gays off buildings like radical Muslims given their depiction.
Waterfall Insurance
on October 12, 2017 at 5:32 am
I think Nazi hatred is more in pop culture than Soviet hatred is. It is also Interesting looking at reviews of Indiana Jones and the crystal skull and how many of them talk about the Soviets being less satisfactory villians. I think college has been taken over much more than public school. My public school education the teachers were mostly Liberal with a few conservatives but I never had a full prog class till College. I think the over emphasis on teaching the Holocaust is because it wasn’t controversial to teach and over time becomes more and more of the curriculum. If they were really full prog they would teach more about Woman’s suffrage etc. Financing students getting worthless degrees is largely why college has gone so far off course in a way that public school can’t as quickly.
BigT
on October 12, 2017 at 6:11 am
More importantly, Nazis were overtly racists with well documented death camps. The killing was a ‘hate crime’. Simple stories for simple minds.
Brochettaward
on October 12, 2017 at 1:40 am
So, the entire semester I spent learning about the Holocaust – nothing war related – is purely because it was a turning point in history? And when did such education start? I agree with part of your argument, but the whole doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. There’s enough to where the Cold War should be taught more. I also have to ask…aren’t you Canadian? When discussing American education, that seems somewhat relevant.
In terms of Cold War versus Nazi propaganda, I’d actually think the ever-present but nebulous enemy would outweigh the one you defeated in relatively short order. I think your entire view here is very top-down oriented which very rarely reflects the reality.
The anti-Nazi education I received was very valuable. I remember it more vividly than most other topics. It was hammered home at every stage of my education. But most of it wasn’t based on anything actual visual. Most of it was written reinforced with some video.
Brochettaward
on October 12, 2017 at 1:52 am
I should add that pretty much all of the video I saw were dramatizations with actors. Not people lined up next to ditches being shot. And even the footage I did see of that wasn’t until college and my professor was attached by his ‘peers’ for showing it to us. Even if was only a few minutes worth.
John Titor
on October 12, 2017 at 1:54 am
So, the entire semester I spent learning about the Holocaust – nothing war related – is purely because it was a turning point in history?
Well, and let’s be real here, the large percentage of Jews with a great deal of political, economic and cultural influence probably have something to do that.
(Standard disclaimer that I am not whining about “DA JOOS AND THE MEDIA” or claiming this is some nefarious conspiracy).
I also have to ask…aren’t you Canadian? When discussing American education, that seems somewhat relevant.
I have a degree in history and am familiar with the American curriculum, at least what it was in the early 2000s. I find it lacking but not for the reasons you think.
In terms of Cold War versus Nazi propaganda, I’d actually think the ever-present but nebulous enemy would outweigh the one you defeated in relatively short order.
How many bodies did that nebulous enemy ship home to grieving loved ones in comparison to ‘the one you defeated in relatively short order’? That’s your answer. Nebulous enemies are vague enough that the majority of people are unable to contextualize them, and more likely to be feared than hated. Direct enemies, particularly ones who attacked you first, are a direct threat and therefore an avenue for hatred. The demonization of the Russians is nothing compared to wartime depictions of ‘Nazis’ (the Allies at least made the distinction) or the Japanese, which is a whole other league.
John Titor
on October 12, 2017 at 2:00 am
Not people lined up next to ditches being shot. And even the footage I did see of that wasn’t until college and my professor was attached by his ‘peers’ for showing it to us.
You’re confusing education with the experiences of the people who actually saw the camps, or the footage. It solidified the concept of the Nazi concentration camp as a venue of pure evil into the Western cultural zeitgeist. it would always be taught that way and always be seen as a thing to avoid. Outside of the obvious exception of Cambodia there has never been anything on par with that in regards to communism.
John Titor
on October 12, 2017 at 2:00 am
Qualify: I am familiar with the high school curriculum, not the elementary school.
Pine_Tree
on October 12, 2017 at 7:53 am
I think it’s also partly because it would include an admission that some of our allies in WW2 were more murderous than some of our (also monumentally murderous) enemies. Messes up the “we’re pure as the driven snow and WW2 was a crusade for Freedom” story.
Heck, explain some things the Pacific Theater with respect to US-China relations, or get into Japan’s actions in China, and folks will think you’re making it up.
KSuellington
on October 12, 2017 at 2:43 am
I should have said .United States. instead of .here.
KSuellington
on October 12, 2017 at 2:48 am
Sorry. That was not supposed to be there.
And yes, fuck socialism.
Trigger Hippie
on October 12, 2017 at 4:16 am
Nope! Too late! We have you on record and we’ll never forgive for this shit.
Brochettaward
on October 12, 2017 at 12:30 am
I make this point whenever possible to leftists. Anyone who embraces identity politics is incredibly vulnerable. It’s fun to flip the script on them. I actually had one socialist Bernie supporter apologize to me, though they continued to claim that democratic socialism was different. It’s fun to turn their warped worldview on themselves by claiming to be a Polish American whose people were persecuted by commie shitbags.*
*I’m pretty sure I’m not actually Polish, and that my Grandfather just lied about his nationality to get into America. His WW2 is kind of sketchy, and he was German…But my other Grandfather was a POW of the Germans while serving under Patton and served in Korea. So, I figure it all evens out and is close enough to the truth. Regardless, fuck commies.
Michael
on October 12, 2017 at 8:16 am
This is tangential to your post, but I was actually just thinking about how nobody seems to acknowledge what little cultural value the communists have contributed to the world throughout their history. The United States can’t be identified by any single popular cultural or artistic movement because there just have been so damn many throughout its history, while modern day leftists still cling to 1920s Constructivism for their visual branding because all of their various movements haven’t produced anything notable since then. Case in point – the work of one of the most revered artists of the left, Shepard Fairey, has borrowed Constructivist aesthetic heavily throughout most of his career. There has literally been nothing noteworthy to have emerged out of communism since then, and even that movement wasn’t originally spawned from communism itself. It actually predated the Bolsheviks by a number of years until it was later suppressed. Communism is the most nihilistic, soul crushing void that humans have ever dreamed up.
Dafuq?
Even I’m not clicking on that shit
I’m so damn confused right now.
Not clicking.
It’s a rabbit fucking a turtle isn’t it?
No, it’s actually a very beautiful, tender vignette.
And possibly moist.
COWARDS!
Fine, I’ll add my own contribution to weird AF videos from Japan.
I’m game.
Japan?
Dokdo is not Takeshima!
Citations, with links, needed.
Slow and steady wins the race?
Proof anything is hot with that coy Asian laugh. You disgust me! Where I can I find a full length video? Pervert!
I thought it was pretty standard Japanese weirdness until the hare morphing at the end creeped the shit out of me.
First!
Anyone see that South park, Lord of the Rings episode? Yeah, I’m out. I don’t want to play anymore. I’m done.
Radio Tokyo.
WHEN WILL RETHUGLICANS VOTE FOR COMMON SENSE CORN CONTROL!?
Yet another argument to end government subsidizing the corn industry.
How about yet another argument to end government subsidizing period.
All these years I was doomed to be a late boomer, younger than Barry Sotero yet older than Fonzie with AIDS. Now, no less an authority than the Old Gray Lady of record, the New York Fucking Times tells me that, all along, I’ve been Gen-X !
“Like other ’80s bands trying to navigate the Brexit and Trump era, Depeche Mode has gotten ever more woke.”
Gag me with a spoon…might be the wrong decade, but it fits.
Just don’t hold your breath for a new INXS album anytime soon.
Hang on.
Music journalism is at the lowest point its ever been.
And music journalism was never good.
Yankees, baby!
ALCS should be entertaining
Who is your favorite Little Rascal? is it Alfalfa or Spanky? Sinner.
Who is your favorite Little Rascal? is it Alfalfa or Spanky? Sinner.
iiiya~~~~~~~~~~~~~da
I just read that article in the NR about Yuri Dimitriev. It is amazing to me that the horror of what the communists did in the Soviet Union is still hand waved away, even here. At this point there is a mountain of records of mass killings. It’s staggering that this most pernicious ideology is still very much with us today. When somone says that they are anti capitalist and want to nationalize industries, this is somehow acceptable. I heard this today even. It doesn’t seem much different from someone advocating national socialism, it reeks.
End rant
It depends on what you mean by ‘here’. Most glibs view the fights between nazis and commies as international socialists vs. national socialists. ‘Why can’t they both lose?’ And the death toll by the commies in the 20th century completely dwarfs the Nazis.
But Ironically the commies had a better marketing team. After all, nobody needs more than one type of socialism.
It’s really hard to underestimate the role of public education/media on everyone’s perceptions of reality. Our schools are fundamentally progressive institutions. We spend countless hours teaching about the Holocaust. I’ve probably had to read Anne Frank’s diary like 5 times. By comparison, the Cold War is barely taught. It’s the last chapter at the end of the semester in high school, and maybe a week gets spent teaching anything on what happened in Russia internally.
I remember hearing a lot about the atrocities committed by the Nazis but hearing more about US Cold War policy and almost nothing about the atrocities committed by the Soviet Union and I graduated public school just over a decade ago. I don’t recall ever hearing about gulags or anything of that sort. We mostly just studied things like Vietnam and protests but not really why we were ideologically opposed to the Soviet Union aside from MAD.
I think national socialism also comes off worse because:
1. The sheer brutal Teutonic efficiency of the death camps. It was basically an industrial assembly line of death.
2. We actually got to see and record the inside of concentration camps firsthand, whereas the most we have of gulags are accounts from prisoners. Camps that do get fully exposed (a la the Khmer Rouge) are only defended by tankies.
3. In the case of most Western countries, they actually fought Nazis, and war propaganda extends for decades after the fact. The Soviets, in their more mushy ‘Cold War’ quasi-enemy stance, or the Chinese, in their later quasi-ally stance, don’t fill the same role.
These seem like rationalizations to me. I didn’t see death camp footage – the most gruesome stuff – until college. Despite years of Holocaust education. In American schools, the Khmer Rouge and communist China are barely footnotes to what you learn. Ideological affinity by those who set the agenda explains far more here to me. The Nazis were unprecedented in their awfulness for a short while.
If I were looking for a fairer reason, it would be the lack of class time. But, if propaganda were the answer, I’d think half a century of the Cold War would have rectified it. Nothing is more galvanizing than emphasizing the atrocities of your opponent. FDR fundamentally changed domestic politics, though. Progressive politics became the starting point for any political conversation after WW2. The scale had been tilted heavily to the left.
In American schools, the Khmer Rouge and communist China are barely footnotes to what you learn.
And did America fight the most destructive war in human history against Cambodia and China?
The Nazis are cemented into Western history because they play a central role in an ultimate conflict between authoritarianism and freedom. That is why they are taught in American schools, because they’re far more relevant to U.S. history than some Cambodians murdering people with glasses. Communist influence was subtler.
But, if propaganda were the answer, I’d think half a century of the Cold War would have rectified it.
War propaganda and Cold War propaganda are not the same things. One is demonization of a direct and present enemy with the bodies to prove it, the other is a nebulous opponent you are vaguely in competition with, but not in direct conflict.
Also, considering that the Russians are basically the only people on the planet you can outright portray as immoral monsters without being called xenophobic or racist I think you underestimate its effectiveness.
That is a very recent thing based entirely on the 2016 campaign. When the Cold War ended, Russia didn’t become a real political football again until Bush the Lesser. And that was towards the end of his second term. And then the media was perfectly willing to side with Russia. Probably just a reflexive impulse they hadn’t quite gotten over.
It’s not that recent or based entirely on the 2016 election. A couple years ago you’d think the Russians were marching homosexuals into concentration camps or throwing gays off buildings like radical Muslims given their depiction.
I think Nazi hatred is more in pop culture than Soviet hatred is. It is also Interesting looking at reviews of Indiana Jones and the crystal skull and how many of them talk about the Soviets being less satisfactory villians. I think college has been taken over much more than public school. My public school education the teachers were mostly Liberal with a few conservatives but I never had a full prog class till College. I think the over emphasis on teaching the Holocaust is because it wasn’t controversial to teach and over time becomes more and more of the curriculum. If they were really full prog they would teach more about Woman’s suffrage etc. Financing students getting worthless degrees is largely why college has gone so far off course in a way that public school can’t as quickly.
More importantly, Nazis were overtly racists with well documented death camps. The killing was a ‘hate crime’. Simple stories for simple minds.
So, the entire semester I spent learning about the Holocaust – nothing war related – is purely because it was a turning point in history? And when did such education start? I agree with part of your argument, but the whole doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. There’s enough to where the Cold War should be taught more. I also have to ask…aren’t you Canadian? When discussing American education, that seems somewhat relevant.
In terms of Cold War versus Nazi propaganda, I’d actually think the ever-present but nebulous enemy would outweigh the one you defeated in relatively short order. I think your entire view here is very top-down oriented which very rarely reflects the reality.
The anti-Nazi education I received was very valuable. I remember it more vividly than most other topics. It was hammered home at every stage of my education. But most of it wasn’t based on anything actual visual. Most of it was written reinforced with some video.
I should add that pretty much all of the video I saw were dramatizations with actors. Not people lined up next to ditches being shot. And even the footage I did see of that wasn’t until college and my professor was attached by his ‘peers’ for showing it to us. Even if was only a few minutes worth.
So, the entire semester I spent learning about the Holocaust – nothing war related – is purely because it was a turning point in history?
Well, and let’s be real here, the large percentage of Jews with a great deal of political, economic and cultural influence probably have something to do that.
(Standard disclaimer that I am not whining about “DA JOOS AND THE MEDIA” or claiming this is some nefarious conspiracy).
I also have to ask…aren’t you Canadian? When discussing American education, that seems somewhat relevant.
I have a degree in history and am familiar with the American curriculum, at least what it was in the early 2000s. I find it lacking but not for the reasons you think.
In terms of Cold War versus Nazi propaganda, I’d actually think the ever-present but nebulous enemy would outweigh the one you defeated in relatively short order.
How many bodies did that nebulous enemy ship home to grieving loved ones in comparison to ‘the one you defeated in relatively short order’? That’s your answer. Nebulous enemies are vague enough that the majority of people are unable to contextualize them, and more likely to be feared than hated. Direct enemies, particularly ones who attacked you first, are a direct threat and therefore an avenue for hatred. The demonization of the Russians is nothing compared to wartime depictions of ‘Nazis’ (the Allies at least made the distinction) or the Japanese, which is a whole other league.
Not people lined up next to ditches being shot. And even the footage I did see of that wasn’t until college and my professor was attached by his ‘peers’ for showing it to us.
You’re confusing education with the experiences of the people who actually saw the camps, or the footage. It solidified the concept of the Nazi concentration camp as a venue of pure evil into the Western cultural zeitgeist. it would always be taught that way and always be seen as a thing to avoid. Outside of the obvious exception of Cambodia there has never been anything on par with that in regards to communism.
Qualify: I am familiar with the high school curriculum, not the elementary school.
I think it’s also partly because it would include an admission that some of our allies in WW2 were more murderous than some of our (also monumentally murderous) enemies. Messes up the “we’re pure as the driven snow and WW2 was a crusade for Freedom” story.
Heck, explain some things the Pacific Theater with respect to US-China relations, or get into Japan’s actions in China, and folks will think you’re making it up.
I should have said .United States. instead of .here.
Sorry. That was not supposed to be there.
And yes, fuck socialism.
Nope! Too late! We have you on record and we’ll never forgive for this shit.
I make this point whenever possible to leftists. Anyone who embraces identity politics is incredibly vulnerable. It’s fun to flip the script on them. I actually had one socialist Bernie supporter apologize to me, though they continued to claim that democratic socialism was different. It’s fun to turn their warped worldview on themselves by claiming to be a Polish American whose people were persecuted by commie shitbags.*
*I’m pretty sure I’m not actually Polish, and that my Grandfather just lied about his nationality to get into America. His WW2 is kind of sketchy, and he was German…But my other Grandfather was a POW of the Germans while serving under Patton and served in Korea. So, I figure it all evens out and is close enough to the truth. Regardless, fuck commies.
This is tangential to your post, but I was actually just thinking about how nobody seems to acknowledge what little cultural value the communists have contributed to the world throughout their history. The United States can’t be identified by any single popular cultural or artistic movement because there just have been so damn many throughout its history, while modern day leftists still cling to 1920s Constructivism for their visual branding because all of their various movements haven’t produced anything notable since then. Case in point – the work of one of the most revered artists of the left, Shepard Fairey, has borrowed Constructivist aesthetic heavily throughout most of his career. There has literally been nothing noteworthy to have emerged out of communism since then, and even that movement wasn’t originally spawned from communism itself. It actually predated the Bolsheviks by a number of years until it was later suppressed. Communism is the most nihilistic, soul crushing void that humans have ever dreamed up.