A President elected based on a grassroots sentiment completely misunderstood by New England elites. A faction agitating for war with a hereditary rival. Another faction egging on increased hostilities with a weak and belligerent country, the conflict stemming from a disputed piece of land lost in a revolution. A mass of troops stationed at the southern border. A long-lasting war against a wide-spanning network of stone-age terrorists. Domestic strife based around the treatment of persons of color.
It could be a description of President Trump’s first few months in office, but it also applies to James K. 
Polk’s presidency. Back then, phrases like “Manifest Destiny” were bandied about, representing the conquering spirit of the American people in the mid-19th century. Agitators were pushing aggressive postures against Great Britain (over the Oregon Territory) and Mexico (over Texas and California) so that the US could claim a great swath of the Western Frontier. Polk was also engaged in a generations’ long battle that he inherited from his predecessors, a smoldering fight against the Indians. Some Indians, like the Seminoles, had resorted to indiscriminate violence against all infidels Americans. People traveling between towns would be snatched off the highway, tortured, and have their brains bashed in. Further, the tinderbox of slavery was awaiting a spark before igniting the Civil War. Interestingly, Polk’s acquisition of California was one of the biggest destabilizing events in the mid-19th Century that made the Civil War inevitable.
I’ve been listening (audiobook) to a biography of General Sherman, and his connection to the politics of this time is fascinating. As a Lieutenant looking to get a taste of the glory of war and a promotion, Sherman’s near-exile to Monterrey, California during the Mexican War was excruciating. However, he was right in the middle of history, being one of the first people to know of gold in California. It’s interesting to see the reaction of Americans to border disputes in territories far away from the states themselves. People seemed to have the same”go get ’em” attitude when it came to 19th century imperialism as when it comes to 21st century nation building.
Comments
168 responses to “Deja Vu”
California has been causing problems from the start then?
Sadly, secessionist guy has given up and emigrated to Russia.
We don’t need the whole state to seceed, we just need to break the cities off from the sane parts. New York could use a similar treatment.
I’m willing to let the state go to get the cities out. We can always filibuster the parts we want back.
He was basically always agitating from Russia. Someone didn’t read our early content.
I’m fully aware. The news is today he declared officially he’s peacing out for the Motherland.
You were so on point with that one jesse. Way to scoop!
I think Brett is digging it up to put in the afternoon links. It was fun putting it together. Maybe I should go back to writing serious things instead of weeknight filler.
Who am I kidding. I can barely get pics of sexy guys out the door in a timely fashion.
Maybe if you didn’t have to so thoroughly inspect every one?
My wife got very excited about the kilted coaches, by the way. Thanks for making me look even more inadequate.
According to Sam Houston, according to Wikipedia, James K. Polk was “a victim of the use of water as a beverage”
He had cholera?
Well I like to think someone was shitting in the president’s water
I am going to buy my boy ice cream, eat 38% of it, Give him the rest, but charge him 10% bite tax. When he’s done, I’ll demand payment for the space he occupies in his room. After that I am going to confiscate his high capacity bb guns, and fine him for not wearing his Seatbelt while riding his bicycle.
I’m going to take some ice cream that my kid bought himself, break off 38% of it, keep that 38% in my pocket for an hour, then make him fill out a series of complicated forms to inform me of how much I should give back to him. If he doesn’t end up owing me more ice cream (which is a very real possibility) I’m going to go over the forms for errors and take a hefty chunk of his remaining ice cream as a penalty. But I’ll be nice and tell him that if he wants to dispute the penalty, he can come an appeal the decision during the operating hours, which are 1:00 PM to 2:00 PM on Tuesdays whose numerical day of the year is divisible by 12. If he can’t make it during those hours, too bad. Then as he’s sitting there licking the melted mess of ice cream that he got back from me, I’m going to harangue him about being so greedy and unwilling to pay his fair share. Finally, I’ll tell him that if he doesn’t like anything about this arrangement, he can just vote and change it. PS: I’m giving the confiscated portions of his ice cream to his three younger siblings, and the vote will be held among all four of them.
Oh, I forgot one thing: if I find out that he bought ice cream behind my back or ate ice cream at a friend’s house, I’m going to beat his ass.
…are we allowed to talk about Lucy here?
About our hate for her? Or is that just me? I think it’s just me
Sorry, I confused her with Resiniwitz (Team Borowski, personally). Damn those eastern European names
It would be great to only be 38%.
It’s over 50% up here in Canuckistan and there are enough people every election who want more stones to be added to the cart they have to drag with their necks.
My pay stub should arrive today. I’ll do the math and find out if it is only 38%…
That’s just the with-holding theft, not even the regulatory capture.
Start factoring in regulatory costs down the line for EVERYTHING and I hate to even think what that number looks like. 70+% would be a safe bet.
I never have done the math, because it would probably make me puke. I’m guess it’s close to %50 for me.
Income tax
Sales tax
Property tax
Vehicle licensing fees.
Toll roads
Sin tax (I spend a bunch here b/c I smoke and like beer)
SS/ponzi scheme tax
medicare tax
Fucking Seatbelt ticket I got.
Fire dues
The government gets a lot of my dollars.
I separate usage fees (like tolls) from taxes because I can opt out of them easily (by taking a different route, etc). For my math, the money taken fro medi-* and SS is already in the main % because it’s on the stub and easily calculated.
PS, you left off other excise taxes like the gas tax…
Unless I take a convoluted route that would take a good amount longer, I can’t avoid toll roads on my way to work. Pain in the ass.
:/ That’s awful. I only opt for the toll road in visiting my mother because it’s always better maintained (having a separate entity taking care of just that road, etc) But there are at least two other roads I could take to get there without tolls. (Hense my ‘opt out’ comment)
I like to lump it all together and classify it as- monies given to the government.
I’m sure there is more I’m not even aware of.
*sobs quietly*
For my math, the money taken fro medi-* and SS is already in the main % because it’s on the stub and easily calculated.
Don’t forget to add in the employer side of those taxes.
Please don’t forget about the income taxes you pay on your other taxes.
Funny how no one suggested that the kid spend his afternoon calculating what that 38% is, and then if you figure he was incorrect in his calculation, you’ll take another few bites of his ice cream as punishment.
(….envision gas-station wombat-locals in rural maine, townie massholes, chairlift operators in VT….)
yeah, sometimes history requires Lord of the Rings-esque suspension of disbelief
Tangentially related personal anecdote: one of my relatives from the 19th century was in the 1st U.S. Dragoons during the Mexican War. He fought at San Pasqual (near San Diego). There’s a monument to the battle just south of Escondido, CA. That monument was almost next door to my parents’ house when they lived there. Never knew we had a relative whose name was listed on the monument the entire time they lived there.
Another past relative owned a home in Evanston, IL that is now the anthropology department at Northwestern. Both my parents went to college there (though they did not major in anthro, thank dog).
That same Evanston relative was the commander of Giesboro/Camp Stoneman (now JB Anacostia-Bolling) , where I worked one summer when I first moved to DC.
you need to get away from your roots some.
Apparently.
Blame it all on my roots.
I came here in boots,
and ruined your black tie affair.
“Dragoons” is one of those really cool sounding troops they never should have retired.
“DenverJ, Col 1st Dragoons, Ret.”
Sounds cool.
Brits still use it for a few units.
This reminds me of a Mike Rowe podcast a few months ago. He told the story of a Republican president that divided the country, and how some people were passionately for him and some passionately against.
(SPOILER ALERT)
The way the story was told it sounded like the story was about Trump, but at the end he revealed it was about Lincoln. I think it was really well done and it illustrated the point that people are often divided by politics, sometimes violently, and that’s nothing new. But Rowe got a huge shit storm of criticism from people who thought he was comparing Trump favorably to Lincoln. People can be so stupid.
Yes, but Trump is literally Hitler
So if Trump = Lincoln, and Trump = Hitler, doesn’t that mean Lincoln = Hitler?
Abradolf Lincler! He will emancipate you from your own inferior genes!
Well, they were both war criminals.
But Rowe got a huge shit storm of criticism from people who thought he was comparing Trump favorably to Lincoln.
As far as I know, trumps election hasn’t triggered a multi year civil war with a record number of American casualties. I don’t think he has ordered a forced draft or had any deserters executed. I’d say, so far, Trump is doing a better job of running America than Lincoln did.
Do most Americans know anything about Lincoln other than “He freed the slaves”?
Because, while his abolitionism was great and all, he was pretty shitty when it came to civil liberties outside of that.
Short answer – no.
Long answer – no, because most Americans went to public school and that’s all that is taught. Also, most Americans aren’t curious enough to further investigate the matter and see what all happened.
Say what you will about Stefan Molyneux (I really can’t decide if I like him), he opened my eyes to this as well as other things. I assume that not everything he says in most of his “Truth about…” series is correct, but just hearing someone criticize Lincoln and talk about more than ‘Freed the slaves!’ was an eye opener.
For a critique of Lincoln from his time, read Lysander Spooner. Anti-slavery, anti-war.
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll check it out!
I haven’t listened to anything from him. I just looked at his website. Looks interesting. I’ll listen to a podcast on my way home today and see if I like it. Opinions?
I only discovered him fairly recently. I’ve listened to a fair bit of his stuff, some I like, some I don’t. I get the impression that his channel and opinions have changed a lot over time. I consider that a good thing, even if I don’t necessarily agree with him. So far as I know, he still claims he’s an anarchist (probably more An-Cap than the lefty flavor), atheist, but I feel like too often his opinions are lining up with the traditional SoCon positions. Not just obvious things like a strong family unit leads to better outcomes for children. I can’t remember anything specific right now though, so feel free to disregard that claim.
I think the quality can be a little variant in terms of how entertaining it is and its rigor, but my overall impression: Youtube is better for having him on it.
I found his Truth About Gahndi, Truth about Nelson Mandela and Truth about Abraham Lincoln both eye opening. I’m a former progressive though, so these were sacred cows for me, despite my obvious ignorance.
After a while you figure out that cows aren’t sacred. They are brutish, dull, and they stink. They really do shit the place up. The only upside comes after you kill them.
Even freeing the slaves was a strategic move to prevent the British (who had already abolished slavery) from siding militarily with the people rebelling from those uppity colonists who rebelled from Britain.
While that may be true with regards to timing, the desire for abolition was baked into the party he represented. Abolishing slavery was the whole reason the Republican party was formed. Once the South left and the war picked up to the point that a peaceful reconciliation was out of the question, abolition was inevitable.
How many people who never owned slaves were dispossessed of their property, rendered homeless, scarred, or killed in both the North and South because of the Civil War? Even if you think it’s the most righteous crusade in the history of everything, there was collateral damage. You can’t say Lincoln “freed the slaves” but isn’t responsible for any of the bad stuff.
That’s… exactly what I was saying?
Mostly, yes. It was elaboration, not contradiction.
And he didn’t, actually. He made a proclaimation overturning the law of what was effectively a foreign power at the time while leaving those within his jurisdiction in chains.
I would have to look it up, but I think Kentucky may have been the last state with legal slavery, for that reason.
Kentucky was split, but primarily pro-union and pro-slavery.
I heard a local historian say that Kentucky seceeded after the war was over.
KY and DE were the two remaining slave states when the 13th amendment was ratified (GA was the state that put it over the top).
Kentucky was neutral, but pledged to oppose any invading army. At some point Lee crossed into Kentucky causing them to side with the Union. I believe a renegade legislature also formed which voted in favor of succession. Something similar happened in Missouri which how you get 13 stars on the battle flag even though there were only 11 obvious Confederate states.
I’m too lazy to consult wikipedia or a map so I may just be full of shit.
KY was not really neutral. Especially within the congressional delegation, it was strongly pro-union. Yes, there was a large minority that favored the South, but it wasn’t nearly as split as sometimes represented. Although about as split as any state was, its just the rest were really extreme.
That duplicity was worthy of Obama.
As someone mentioned on another CW thread, I take the Spooner view of it.
Also, although the freeing of the slaves itself was a moral good, apparently the end of the war was so badly mismanaged disease and starvation may have killed up to four million recently freed slaves.
Yay.
Amazon.ca wouldn’t let me buy anything from them because I live in the US – even when I was having it shipped to a Canukistani. I ended up having the slower and more expensive shipping across the border when the product could have been bought and shipped entirely within the confines of Canadia.
Sorry, that’s the first thing that comes to mind when I think of amazon.ca
It’s terrible. I try and find private sellers in the US when I can, but it is sad that often it is cheaper for something to get shipped from South-America or South-East asia than it is from Canada or the US.
It doesn’t help that the CBSA thugs open any parcel they even think might be worth more than 20$, or that looks suspicious, or that might have stuff in it they might like at home…
I may have explained poorly.
When I switched to my current cover artist, I decided to send him a copy of the first book his art appeared on. (We later re-did my older works to match cover styles). He’s north of the US-Canada border. In terms of time and cost, it would have been cheapest if I could just pay Amazon in Canada to ship him a copy from Canada.
Because I’m in the US, Amazon wouldn’t let me do business with their Canadian arm and I had to do business with their US arm. I had two options – free two-day shipping to me then unknown slow shipping to canada, or less cheap slow shipping to canada.
I was miffed.
Aren’t you made of energy? Can you even smell? Is that why the suit is smelly?
That’s weird. I’ve bought stuff from amazon.de before. Blame Canada!
I’ve bought from at least half a dozen different amazon places (.jp, .uk, .de, .fr, etc – no issues (all the checkout processes are the same – of course, now I think they auto-translate). Don’t think I had issues with .ca either.
…apparently the end of the war was so badly mismanaged disease and starvation may have killed up to four million recently freed slaves.
At the time of the emancipation proclamation there were about four million slaves in the entirety of the US, so this estimate is wildly inaccurate. Considering there were enough remaining freedmen to vote the Republican carpetbaggers into office after the war, I’m going to say that whatever mismanagement there was did not have nearly the negative effect that author is trying to portray.
How many Americans think Lincoln was a Democrat ? Because, you know, Democrat good, Republican bad.
The parties have flipped sides since then.
Actual comment I have heard multiple times.
I’ve gotten that before, too. I like to follow it up by asking if internment camp enthusiast FDR was also a “true” Democrat or not. It puts them in a bind because they’re usually proud to claim him as one of their own.
I also like to note that old southern racists and Klansmen like Robert Byrd did not in fact switch parties, and remained Democrats forever.
My father in law told me the parties switched sides in the 1960’s because of the Civil Rights Act, and that now the Democrats are the good guys.
I then pointed out to him that his entire family had been voting Democrat for a hundred years, and asked why he and his family didn’t switch sides at the same time. He decided at that point that he just didn’t want to talk politics with me. Ever.
According to the Vox-ish/Millenial popular consensus, Republicans were actually Democrats, until like…. after Civil Rights, when all the racists in the south became Republicans. So basically the bad people switched parties. But the good ones were always good. If this makes no sense and isn’t even internally consistent, and ignores the fact that Southern Democrats remained pretty darn racist up until the 1990s or so, don’t you mind your pretty little head about that.
And it is amazing how persistent the “party-switch” myth is, despite how easy it is to debunk it. One need only to look at the examples of Woodrow Wilson and Calvin Coolidge to see how false that is. Wilson, a Democrat, was basically the father of modern progressivism and a rabid racist, while Coolidge, a government cutting, foreign entanglement avoiding, immigration restricting Republican was described as being“devoid of racial prejudice”.
Nope, not really, and most of the civil liberties abuses in the Civil War are handwaved ’cause Confederates’. In short the government is allowed to abuse citizens because their opponents were racists and some owned slaves. Despite the fact that the Union was also racist as hell. And Lincoln thought blacks were incompatible with American society for most of his life.
Admittedly this is a bipartisan affair as well, where the Republicans have elevated him for party propaganda purposes as well.
As long as we’re complaining about Lincoln’s rep, am I the only one annoyed by that cliche how pre-Civil War it was plural, “the United States are”, and afterwards it was singular, “the United States is”. It’s just assumed that consolidating federal power and diminishing the power of states as political entities is a good thing.
I always heard that argument as a bad thing.
Going from plural to singular was the turning point of abandoning federalism.
We have all been here before, we have all been here before
No TMBG link yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGCuDDAPggw
problem solved.
That’s hazing now? Give me a break. Christ, I’ve only been out of active duty for 11 years but it seems like a lifetime.
You can’t handle the truth
Does it even count if there’s no humiliating/potentially fatal broomstick sodomy?
You can’t handle…. uh…. please don’t put that handle there.
That is not a very good album title.
Never forget my first day of college in Baltimore. I turned on the local news and the headline report was about two 14 year olds sodomizing a 12 year old in the school bathroom with a broomstick.
Charm City.
I grew up in a suburb of Baltimore. I remember the local news was at least 3 or 4 murders every single night.
Huh. Ten minutes after I left the whole sordid affair felt like a nightmare that someone else experienced and told me about. I have gotten the ‘thank you for your service’ a few times. I never say what I want to say – “You wouldn’t thank me if you knew” or “I wouldn’t do it again”. I remember driving home in the early spring a free man. The new leaves were so very green, the air so very fresh and feeling free with a future full of promise. I knew I would never take orders again. Ever. From anyone. That day and the day my son was born are definitely at the top of the list of best days.
He’s getting court martialed for yelling at someone and calling him names.. and this is the US military.
You’re right, we shouldn’t invade N Korea. I don’t think it will go as well this time.
We’ll be fine, Drones don’t get their feelings hurt
I cant help but think those reasons aren’t the real reasons they are shit-canning the guy. He is probably nuts. That is just what they can get him on.
That seems mild compared to what they do the first time you cross the equator (at least from what I have heard).
That shellback shit is why I was glad to be the rare Marine who never went on a float.
They’ve had to tone it back for years now. Of course, the shellbacks (enlisted) could still lord it over the filthy, slimy wogs (officers or otherwise) for a good 6 hours. I blew out some padeyes on the flight deck, got sprayed with the firehose for a while, got dunked in slime a few dozen times before King Neptune finally let me cross the line.
No more shillelaghs though. But hands and knees on non-skid still ain’t fun.
Good times. Just off the Galapagos in 2012.
This has all happened before and this will all happen again?
Cue Viper flyover
Not sure. But, the open-air slave markets have returned to North Africa.
I saw that. I don’t watch the news like I used to but I would imagine the legacy media hasn’t said much about that. If they have then I am sure they haven’t tied it to our ‘intervention ‘ there
Libya, the oil-rich North African country descended into chaos after a Western intervention while parts of it have become a bastion for Daesh, giving the militants a new base, even as its territory in Syria and Iraq shrinks under constant assault.
No way! What kind of incompetent boob was Secretary of State when this happened?
It was a pair of em, I think.
*narrows gaze, appropriating swiss culture*
/golf clap.
APPROVED.
Reminds me of a joke from a while back in Texas, when Ann Richards was running for governor against some guy.
“The governor’s race is between a boob with two nuts, and a nut with two boobs.”
I’m surprised it didn’t get recycled for last year’s POTUS throwdown.
Unpossible, slavery is illegal in the US, and since white Americans were the only slaveholders in history, there is literally no demand for slaves.
Returned? You mean attention to them has returned.
Don’t remind me of that episode. Or the last half of the last season.
It’s still one of my favorite Series, regardless. But yeah you could feel the tacked on finale from orbit
OT: But a comment from thread yesterday that I saw overnight reminded me of the story.
A prof teaching an engineering math class (primarily covering Fourier Series and the like) says at a certain point that all multiplicative constants on each term are just going to be assumed to be 1 for the rest of the course (to avoid writing out C1, C2, etc on each series).
Some classes later:
Student: You left off 4Pi* from that term.
Prof: Its equal to 1.
Half the class: [unable to comprehend]
*It may have been something else, but it involved Pi.
Hilarious
(whispers) Was this a joke?
No, the prof was dead serious.
He said all constants were to be assumed to be equal to 1. He meant it.
What was he doing teaching engineering? Transfer him to “Math for Activists” or something along those lines if he’s got too much tenure to just punt out on the street.
I was mocking the students. The prof made sense.
The reason only half the students were confused is that only half of them even understood the math enough to know there was something wrong.
In other Cali news, apparently the leader of the secession movement has decided to call it quits and move to Russia to pursue his dreams of progtopia. You can’t even make this shit up these days. To see the article, it’s at TSTSNBN.
Marinelli has been in Russia the whole time. He’s got a Russian wife and Yes California *may* have been partially influenced by his difficulties getting her a visa.
Russians are messing with our democracy again.
Worse! People from Buffalo NY.
*sternly narrows gaze*
Please like you want New Yorkers running New York.
I would rather have that drunken bum from the Secret Nazi newscasts running NY than the current bunch.
Wooo – taxes done. And while sober unlike my usual routine.
Getting any of your own money back? Or are you being forced to fork over more?
A little of both. $600 refund from the feds. $300 refund from NJ. Owe $100 to NY (imagine that).
I got money back from NY. But then, CT is more rapacious than they, so they took most of the rebate.
I got more back than I paid in, if you ignore the payroll taxes.
Same will be true for 2017, 2018 and possibly 2019 (at least in part).
I feel like Trump!
OT: I’ve been trying to spend more time reading / listening to non-fiction. Any good libertarian suggestions for either history, political philosophy, or a marriage of the two?
So far I’ve listened / read to:
-Black Rednecks, White Liberals by Sowell, which I liked. Good audiobook.
-Wealth, Poverty and Politics, by Sowell, which I’m enjoying but haven’t finished yet. His prose in this one doesn’t seem as good as Black Rednecks.
-Guns, Germs and Steel by WhatsHisFace, which I’m not enjoying much but am not halfway through yet I don’t think. I also want to punch the guy reading the book, but I’m not sure if that’s because of his voice or because he’s taking the heat for the author.
Nice coffee table book
https://www.amazon.com/More-Liberty-Means-Less-Government/dp/0817996125
Thanks! Would you recommend as a book or audiobook? I kind of need something for my commute.
Either really. They are short stories.
Any 20th century history of soviet Russia will definitely turn you away from any notion that central planning, collectivism, and a huge powerful state are a very bad thing.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/?ean=9780307788580
I read that a fee months ago. It was good.
A concise history of the Russian revolution by Richard pipes.
Hmmm…I was considering picking up Gulag Archipelago. Would you recommend this over that? Both? Also, I should have said I’d love recommendations both for books and audiobooks. I need material for my commute.
IIRC, the Gulag Archipelago documents mostly the plight of prisoners, how they were sentenced, the corruption in the camps, and the horrors they suffered.
The Richard pipes book looks at the revolution and the regime that followed from a broader perspective. It speaks more of the commie leaders, their policies, their political maneuvers, their rational for the atrocities they committed.
One book is from the perspective of the boot, the other from the neck it’s stomping on.
Gulag Archipelago and Koba the Dread are excellent (and chilling) books about the history of Soviet brutality.
This may be blasphemy, but…..I found The Gulag Archipelago dull. One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich conveys the same message in a fraction of the words. Quite effectively, too. “How can you expect a man who is warm to understand one who is cold?”
I think I’ve seen hints to that sentiment here and other places. Maybe I’ll start with One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich.
I enjoyed Court of the Red Tsar immensely. Treating the Communist leadership as an aristocracy stuck in their own world, with disastrous results for both them and their subjects is turned out to be an excellent approach. Getting first-hand testimony from people who were children at the time added a…humanizing might be the wrong word, but definitely important perspective of the people involved.
Really excellent two volume book. Looks like they’ve combined them now. Having a history of philosophy reference book around might be helpful for this.
https://www.amazon.com/Open-Society-Its-Enemies/dp/0691158134
Definately would be difficult to listen to Popper on a commute.
Thanks, that looks like a great book. I think I need to quit my job and just read for like 6 months.
Yeah, I’m with you on that
The True Believer by Eric Hoffer
– The True Believer by Eric Hoffer
– Eichmann in Jerusalem by Hannah Arendt
– Walden by HD Thoreau
– Walden Two* by BF Skinnner
– Koba the Dread by Martin Amis
– Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Edward Gibbon (set a year aside)
none of the above are “libertarian” but are the sort of books that lead someone not a libertarian to start to appreciate its merits
*not a sequel; both ‘waldens’ are worth reading to get an idea about the history of american utopianism, and changing liberal assumptions about human nature and its malleability
Thanks for these. I’ve actually read Walden, did not realize there was another one. Any one of these you’d recommend starting with?
Hoffer. Some people don’t like his style, but i think he’s a wonderful writer and the book provokes a lot of interesting thoughts which resonate in many of the others. I think he’s the most libertarian-inspired of the bunch, if never actually advancing any libertarian argument.
there isn’t; that was sort of my footnote there. The second book was written by a (at one point, very popular) behavioral psychologist who basically advanced an idea that society can achieve perfection through behavioral-conditioning (think Pavlov) as applied to humans.
Its basically a theoretical advancement from Thoreau’s ideas about what is necessary for Utopia – only he (skinner) thinks we need to “mold people” in order to create a better world. It is/was a huge influence on how progressives see the world, and underlies a bunch of stuff that still exists today in public education.
*i should add = Walden Two is a work of fiction; its sort of like the “animal farm” or “1984”-style novelization of a person’s political/philosophical arguments. I think it was a popular thing to do in the 1960s. not really “fiction” so much as the author simply ‘acting out’ how he imagined possible utopian social-experiments would play out in the real world.
I’m pointing this out because i think the description above might give the wrong impression about its readability. Its actually a very easy, quick, mildly-entertaining read; it is still worth reading as a historical popular argument for Progressive Scientific Totalitarianism, or as insight into how this was seen as “cutting edge wisdom” not very long ago.
Thanks. Sounds like I need to reread Thoreau before Walden Two. I read it when I was working as a bouncer, so I think I might have missed some of the finer points.
Walden’s core theme is “Self-discovery through self-reliance”
by learning more about himself (through removing himself from society), he gained insights into why/how society actually functions, and what artificial limits/demands it places on people.
he gradually winnows down his ideas to “what works” – i.e. what produces a healthy, happy life. And what works for a person living alone in the woods should in theory work for the greater number of humanity.
its ultimately an idealistic book about the perfection of man – and through the perfection of man, the perfection of society.
Thoreau saw this process of individual self-improvement being a spiritual thing that requires communion with nature, hard work, and a rejection of excessive materialism.
Skinner’s ideas basically agree with the core goal – ‘how to perfect the individual, and therefore society’, but disagreed entirely on the method, motives, theory, etc.
Skinner believed that socialization, and training people to be more cooperative and function better in collective enterprises, was the path to greater comity and the eradication of social-conflict.
Basically, skinner rejected that the idea of individual perfection was a personal effort accomplished through self reliance. It was a collective effort achieved through application of scientific principles in how we raise children, and through the institutions we use to mold society.
the two books basically chart a path of “liberal” thinking from the 19th-late-20th century, ending relatively close to where we are today. Most of skinners technical-behavioralist stuff may not be widely adopted, but the core “social engineering” aspects of his ideas are hugely influential in modern lefty-thinking.
I was tempted to add “Civilizations & its Discontents” but for whatever reason it seems like a lot of people instinctively cry ‘hogwash’ when you suggest there’s any merits in reading Freud. I read it in highschool and again in college and thought it was fascinating and rich-food for thought, and an interesting take (not very distant from Hoffers) on mass-psychology and how it influences political and civilizational progress.
I think most people these days can’t get past his psychoanalytical mumbo-jumbo so its probably more trouble than its worth.
Yeah – Civilizations & its Discontents is a classic (and a short read), but you have to use it as inspiration, not authority. It’s about 75% brilliant, 25% “wait . . . what?”
exactly.
Some good choices there. I’d add Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes by Jacques Ellul.
It’s not a book, but Hardcore History, specifically the Blueprint for Armageddon series, which covers WWI. It’s a long romp through the horrors of the war, and the hows and whys.
In the podcast world I also like some of the true crime stuff: Casefile and Wrongful Conviction. Also Breakdown, Embedded, and In The Dark
Hardcore History looks interesting. I think Dan Carlin just did an interview with Dave Rubin I haven’t had a chance to listen to. Or was that Joe Rogan? Both? They do mirror their guests a lot.
The Mongol and Persia series are both good too. I still need to finish the last episode on Persia.
Mongols one was called Wrath of the Khans.
Depends if you’re also looking at the dismal science.
I just picked up Friedman’s Capitalism and Freedom, and his Free to Choose are both worth reading, and really, are more political theory than hard economics.
Hayek’s Road to Serfdom of course, and I found his The Fatal Deceit worth reading too. Between the two, you have a reasonably complete treatment of his ideas.
Bastiat’s The Law is going to be in the public domain.
Don’t hurt people and take their stuff by Matt Kibbe is OK, but if you hang out here for a week or so, many of the contributors make an equally good case for libertarianism.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress from Robert Heinlein. This is not as tongue-in-cheek as you might think.
There’s also a book out there from about 5 years ago which is basically an extended list of questions libertarians end up answering. It’s not Mary Ruwart’s book but it’s the same kind of thing.
Thanks, these all look good. I don’t know how I forgot to pick up something by Friedman. I watched some videos of him on Youtube and was struck by his affability in the face of often hostile questioners. Plus he’s brilliant. Hayek I’m not familiar with, but I keep seeing the name, so that’s probably a good indicator.
Here’s Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom as a cartoon book, as published by Readers Digest. Needless to say, the original book is more thorough.
Some of the wry sentences you see here that look a bit archaic are often from Bastiat’s The Law which (despite its age) is very concise, and given that it’ll be translated from the French, very readable.
If it’s pushing libertarianism, it ain’t non-fiction.
I really enjoyed the military history books by John Keegan. Wonderful writer, very interesting books. Some of them, at least, are on Audible.
I’ll second Keegan. The Face of Battle isn’t too long and worth a read as he tried to look at the battle from the soldier on the ground point of view. Also the best breakdown of Waterloo that I’ve read.
His large tomes on WW1 and WW2 are British-centric but still very good.
I dont see any of recommendations that aren’t already suggested save one: Wide As The Waters – Benson Bobrick. Fairly quick interesting read, hits all the high spots on the birth of the English Language.
*I am only half joking when I jab Limeys about ‘learn to speak english’. In truth many of them have trouble understanding their own countrymen whereas here in the states the language is pretty universally understood.
Off topi: Any Eugene Oregon area glibertarians? I will be visiting your lovely city this week, and am always available for a cocktail. During the day i am hiking Mt Pisgah on Thursday, and hiking Spencer Butte on Friday. Feel free to join me. At night, there will be eating and mucho drinko. Also, some kind of punk bar/music would be good.
Email my handle at gmail.
Trashy:
By chance is the Sherman bio you are reading called Fierce Patriot: The Tangled Lives of William Tecumseh Sherman by Robert L. O’Connell? That book just popped up in my BookBub today and am curious if it is a good read. If not, would still like to hear about the one you are reading.
I’m reading this one:
William Tecumseh Sherman: In the Service of My Country: A Life by James Lee McDonough. It popped up as a 2-for-1 deal on Audible.