Time to piss off a bunch of anarchists! Hopefully, you’ll take it in stride and disembowel me in the comments.
Anarchy is quite the opposite of Communism when it comes to political structure and social order. However, when it comes to the relation of these ideas to their respective political segments, Anarchy is the Communism of the Right (or if that’s too harsh for your sensibilities, it’s the Communism of the Libertarian movement). How so? There are three major similarities: 1) The likelihood of long-term, stable implementation, 2) the resultant social order, and 3) the big lie that must be believed in order to accept the philosophy.
Stable Implementation
We’re very quick to trot out the old cliche that Communism has failed every time it was tried. When the accusation is turned back to us, we quickly disavow Somalia and begin thinking through history for a good example. However, the search through history ends very differently when looking for a successful minarchy versus a successful voluntaryist society. There are certainly successful examples of both, but the difference is in scale. History is rife with examples of empires controlling a city or region with a small military presence and a minimal government. Sure, the occupiers tended to plunder the occupied lands, but in comparison to today, such plunder would be considered libertopian. Anarchic societies are comparatively rare and quite fleeting. Usually, they are either quite small and isolated (nomadic tribes), or extremely volatile (territorial California). In essence, an anarchy does not have what is required for a stable society: protection from conquerors, safety from bad actors, and normalization of trade.
As much as we all wish the world worked more like theory, it usually doesn’t. This is because we ignore or misestimate some of the factors that significantly affect the result. Such is how it is in a voluntaryist society. These societies are unstable for many reasons, especially because they are bad at protecting their citizens from conquerors and from bad actors. With limited recourse available, regulating and normalizing trade is outside the reach of an anarchic society of any real size. As such, any anarchic society would necessarily subdivide into small tribes with an extreme distrust of outsiders. It’s hard to imagine the amount of devastation that would be required to create these small anarchic tribes in the modern world. The sheer population density of modern cities would render it impossible sans cataclysm.
Resultant social order
Communism requires the deaths of millions in order to be properly implemented. In essence, instinctual self-preservation needs to be beaten and bred out of a populace before they are able to accept communism. The New Soviet Man was always a generation away because the commies could never kill off that self-preservation instinct that is endemic to all nature. The resultant social order was extremely distorted and self-focused. When staying alive meant selling out the next guy, the next guy ended up in the gulag and you slept soundly that night.
Similarly, anarchy requires massive upheaval to be implemented, and the resultant social order has invariably been harsh, unjust, and lacking in technological growth. Despite the immense gold reserves in mid-19th century California, it was a horrible place for many of the adventurers looking for a boon. Although there was a nominal military government in place, it was wholly unable to police the vast expanse of California territory. In cities like Los Angeles, Monterey, and San Francisco, murders in the streets were common. Theft, fraud and violence were daily hazards. There was such a vacuum of power that vigilance committees were formed on a regular basis, enacting their form of justice, usually politically based and manipulated such that the leaders were enriched at the expense of the citizenry. Rather than the idyllic picture of small virtuous tribes scattered across the countryside or the progressive image of a futuristic city filled with happy prostitutes, heroin vending machines, and no taxes, the history of California shows a dystopian mix of these two images. There were small islands of virtuous, justice-seeking families floating in an ocean of rights-violating horror.
Much like the communists’ aggression borne out of survival, the bad actors aggressed against citizens. However, unlike the communists, the bad actors were aggressive because they could get away with it.
The Big Lie
Acceptance of communism requires belief in a faulty premise. Namely, the premise that individuals do not have agency. Government is greater than the individual and thus can appropriate the property and labor of its citizens. Much of the horrific nature of communism derives from this faulty premise.
Likewise, acceptance of anarchy also requires belief in a faulty premise that there is no valid authority over an individual. In reality, people are quite unstable when completely given over to their own devices. Both outside conquerors and the less savory elements of society show the results of solely individual authority: the complete inability of society to protect citizens from outside conquerors, make citizens safe from bad actors, and normalize trade.
We can always have discussions of what level authority we rightfully have over one another, and, in extension, what authority society and its civil government legitimately have over us. However, the idea that the individual is not subject to any authority (whether legitimate or not, virtuous or not), results in similar absurdities like when the government is fully authoritative. Might makes right. Exploitation over altruism. Vulnerability in the face of outside threats.
“Incident” at my old high school. So now cops get anonymity?
http://nbc4i.com/2017/05/02/school-resource-officer-removed-from-westland-high-school-after-incident-with-student/
They usually withhold the name, but it’s really fucking funny that they won’t even say what the incident is. And the media just goes along.
Several years ago, there was an incident at a local school where a cop negligently fired his gun, but the local paper of course used the passive voice.
So I pointed out in the comments that the gun was released on its own recognizance. Most of the other locals were of the “but the cop is really a good guy” types. They’d never give that benefit of the doubt to a non-cop.
Dance-off.
An American Experiment in AnarchoCapitalism:
The -Not So Wild, Wild West. It’s off to bed for me, sorry, but I wanted to make sure this got out there.
I need to read that, forgot about it. Not an anarchist personally but it’s interesting to read up on some of their ideas.
The settling of new territory is always done primarily by people who have nothing to lose in the old country. Poor and/or wanted by the law; criminal types, runaway slaves, etc. If they were happy and prosperous they would have just stayed home.
Yeah, there is nearly always chaos and little respect for property or life – lots of crime when you have lots of criminal types.
Any good little Communist will tell you that Anarchy is the end-goal of their philosophy. It just requires enough time, as you say, to beat out the individual tendencies of people to form a stable stateless Socialism society. The dichotomy of Communist states is that they usually have a parallel Anarcho-Capitalist economy in the form of black markets. Communism breeds selfishness and an aptitude for cheating into its population, and once they go stateless it would turn into pure capitalism, probably followed by violent feudalism.
I’d like to think most Libertarians are Anarchists who just realize that a state is the only real way to safeguard their rights from slavers and robber barons, while maintaining as much individual liberty as possible by compromising on having a minimal state.
At this point with a government at the size it is now, the minarchist vs anarchist argument is like the 400 lb dude arguing with his wife over what he’ll eat when he’s down to 160. “Fuck You Cut Spending” should be a good enough slogan when you’re 20 trillion in debt.
Exactly.
Heck, its not even the minarchists and the anarchists. We can team up with fiscally responsible big-government-but-not-this-big types too.
Yeah, I was representing the philosophically pure ideal.
Honestly the out-of-control spending and growth is probably pushing a lot of people to the libertarian (should have gone with small “l” in my above post) side these days. Particularly from the right.
Is it a… libertarian… instant?
This is why I don’t even bother engaging with the plausible on their face arguments against minarchism… we’re so far from it that it’s not really a relevant discussion.
“I’m celibate, and he only wants to put it in a little bit”
“I’m a virgin. I’m just not very good at it.”
“I did, in fact, lose my virginity. Turns out it hadn’t gone very far.”
Barring some very inexpensive, ubiquitous tech that makes offense much more difficult to realize than defense (personal shields?), anarchy will be harmful to people and their interests. The schemes I have seen for implementation are very complex in a way that almost no one would be able or willing to adapt to easily (competing protection/juridicial agencies, anyone?), and most are liable to be replaced by authoritarian structures that overthrow anarchy. Hell, I’ve seen the extremely violent medieval Ireland put forth as a *positive* example of anarchy when I’ve asked for real-life examples; as you say, the most successful implementations are overwhelmingly rural, tribal and disconnected from complexities of urbanization and modernity. Anarchy is wishcasting for a humanity and a hyper-individualism that doesn’t exist, over against an achievable implementation of approximate justice.
Thanks to the Holtzman effect, lasguns will be mostly useless in combat. But we’ll become masters in melee combat as a result.
Just wait till I whip out my killing word.
The slow blade penetrates the shield.
Hey, sorry I didn’t get out to the range this past weekend. Some things came up last minute. We should definitely plan to do some shooting sometime though.
No prob, it was actually pretty packed that morning. Actually had a line, although perhaps I should have expected that given the nice weather we’ve been having.
Sounds exhausting. I’ll just pass down my supply of nuclear arms to my children via male primogeniture inheritance, instead.
(munches popcorn)
I saw this one. It had Kevin Costner right?
The Postman is one of the great unintentional comedies I’ve ever seen.
I thought the first sentence of the quoted text suggested “The Postman“, and the second sentence suggested, “Waterworld“;
either way, its a Costner, Costner, Costner world.
I suppose. Waterworld was dull, though. The Postman was hilarious, right down to the pointless Tom Petty cameo.
Get out.
Ok, come back.
I loved that movie as a kid, and I still do. ::kicks seashell::
I’d have loved it more if Laura San Giacomo had been the love interest and wet most of the time.
??””islands of virtuous, justice-seeking families floating in an ocean of rights-violating horror.””??
Also, Dennis Fucking Hopper
The Big Lie of Anarchy is easily avoidable if you believe in a Diety or some kind.
Of course, some might not care for the idea that all legitimate authority is derived from God. Sounds like Divine Right of Kings and bullshit like that.
The opponents of the Divine Right of Kings were the ones saying that rights were God-given.
If you discard the idea of God, you are more likely to end up with Hobbes’ tyrannical, cynical system where the government can’t be resisted and religion is what the government prescribes in order to keep the population docile.
All hail the state
https://mobile.twitter.com/NickKristof/status/859186361747685380
The best and brightest at work.
Couple of nice responses though:
“doesn’t it hurt pulling tweets out of there” and “Maybe a socialist revolution can cure the epidemic via famine, incompetence”
“evidence is liquid calories are particularly bad”
I don’t see them going after Starbucks. I wonder why that is.
“Lay off the white man’s burden, there, Kipling.”
I love it when people score bonus points by berating a Progressive for demonstrating “privilege”.
Someone please put the Kristof lineage out of its misery.
Since we’re talking about communists (perfect segueway, don’t wreck it!):
I posted this last night but I doubt many saw it and it was awesome enough to post again. I give you the antifa militia in all it’s glory! I bet you fascists are quaking in your damn boots.
*segue
You almost had it.
Goddamn French.
What’s the deal with French and communism, anyway? Pol Pot was indoctrinated to Marxism over there. So it’s really all their fault isn’t it?
That awkward moment when everyone is talking about your minor typo and not at all about the content of your post.
Wasn’t much to say. I’ve seen their ridiculousness.
This was super fucking funny though.
Apparently taping a wrench to your arm makes you Ip Man now.
Pretty much, considering what happened in Paris yesterday.
The French love their philosophical pipe dreams.
Sadly it’s Britain too. There are plenty of despotic totalitarians around the world who had some education in the UK. And in some cases, they were even Rhodes Scholars.
Bob Mugabe, Bill Clinton, Thabo Mbeke, Sani Abacha, and if you want to stretch a point, Bashar al Assad were all exposed to the British political system, and they haven’t exactly been models for freedom either,
Thanks, I needed a laugh. Horrific stances, using rifles to shoot targets at a range of about 15-20 feet…..very impressive stuff.
The thugs of the left should be advised, by Marine Corps standards I was an average rifle shot at best but I’ll still knock 7-8 out of 10 down at 500 yards from the prone.
I haven’t had a day of military training and I would wreck all of them with any rifle I own at 200 standing and 300 with stable cover with my primary rifle.
Ugh, in so many ways.
Let’s have a rang day with everyone milling around the area like it’s a Girl Scout bake-out. …
Note there were no kids there. Which is sad, because it’s really important for them.
Here’s Why
I can’t hit the broad side of a barn but I can at least stay within maybe 2 MOA to 200 yards with my beat-up SKS. At 5 yards or whatever they where shooting at they shouldn’t even need to aim.
Great. Now the right will go all-in on gun-control. I’ve already heard a bunch of people at my range reeling in opinions on getting rid of the NFA, because they don’t want the left to have machine guns.
Fudds gonna Fudd, man. I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Those guys didn’t like machine guns to begin with, they’re just putting it in new packaging to appeal to the commiephobes.
Better dead than Red I, for one, welcome the coming class war.
I always thought I’d like the idea of progressive types learning to shoot. But damn, that was just sad.
It is interesting, how the loudest and most radical progressives are so uniformly bad at anything that can be quantified…
I like the awkward combination of civil war style, shoot on command and their tactical chicken wing stance.
What pissed me off about this video, is those assholes didn’t even pick up their brass afterwards. Seriously, that irritates me.
Not that leaving the range trashed is limited to progressives, but yeah. Not exactly a shining example of ‘Leave No Trace’.
But you know, on further consideration, maybe this is a good thing. Maybe it’ll be cathartic for them. Maybe they’ll realize what a pain in the ass it is to buy guns, although I guess not so much in Arizona. Maybe they’ll start thinking positively about the 2A. Or maybe they’ll start some shit and be mowed down in the streets by people who can actually shoot.
Either way it’s a win really.
The biggest problem with a true anarchy is the weakness of trust structures in human societies. If you only protect private property and you don’t know a group of people who want access to it, you must determine if they can be trusted. A group is then vulnerable to invasions and infiltration, because one really only has to be wrong about who to trust once and the whole territory can come crashing down. Without a standing army to defend against this (and a militia is no substitute to defend against seasoned, trained, professional soldiers), it will be conquered eventually.
Not being able to trust people is also what hinders trade. If you know that there’s a police force ready to toss someone’s ass in the slammer for not honoring deals, stealing, etc. then you’re more comfortable engaging in trade with random people. Then only low-order thefts tend to be rife – shoplifting and the like. Major smash-and-grab operations, burglaries, etc. tend to get the most police attention.
A government is a system of externalized trust. It is an escrow system for trust. You don’t have to trust your neighbor to trust that he is likely to be imprisoned for murdering you as long as you continue to believe that your government will. You act more freely without looking over your shoulder.
I’d say that even if you trust the people in your community in general, there will still be “good faith” disputes among community members, each side sincerely believing it’s the true owner to a given piece of property, that its interpretation of the contract is the right one, etc.
Given enough trust, of course, the disputants can work something out or, if not, can at least agree to terms of prompt arbitration rather than prolong the dispute. But even in the case of negotiation or arbitration, there should be a government enforcement mechanism in the background, available if needed.
Indeed, which is why I call it “an escrow system for trust.” It’s something you can bank on being there from day-to-day, so even if a dispute takes a while to get resolved, eventually it will, and most likely without bloodshed.
One of the things that I thought was insightful about Guns, Germs and Steel was the observation that there will always be disputes in any community. In a small enough community, family or extended family/clan structures can support non-violent dispute resolution. But as communities outgrow this rather small size, you need a final arbiter of disputes, or they will get resolved with violence. The final arbiter is the seed of the state. I think he’s onto something.
If he’s right, then anarchy won’t work outside of very small communities for any length of time. Even in a polycentric order, conflicts between the different orders will need to get resolved, either through violence, or through getting kicked up the chain to a final arbiter. Of course, if violence is used to resolve conflicts, then you are on the short, steep road to a state anyway.
The biggest problem with true anarchy is it only lasts until someone powerful declares themselves King.
Which is also a trust issue. You’ve always got to watch “your own” too, because there is no defense against a Kristallnacht when your neighbors have quietly hated you until it was time to get organized.
The only way any of it works is if there is a system of absolute trust, and that is impossible, the utopian dream of fools. Humans can be treacherous. They can open your city gates for the promise of money and safe passage away from the carnage. History is replete with examples. They can form violent gangs which eventually become systems of government.
There is an example for every political system devolving into tyranny at some point. It may happen faster for anarchy than it does for others, but it is hardly unique in that regard.
This is a good point. Figuring out which system results in the slowest descent into tyranny ought to be the goal of political science. In the end, however, the people want to be ruled over by a king.
Everything you described as lacking in a polycentric order has been parsed and discussed at length by numerous thinkers like Murray Rothbard, David Friedman and Hans Hoppe. “Anarchy” does not mean there would be no police or that there would be no institutions governing social interaction and underwriting contracts. For what it’s worth, medieval Iceland had polycentric legal order before it was eventually conquered by the Norwegian king who exercised only nominal sovereignty over Iceland. So you’re right, such societies can be conquered, as any societies can. This one just happened to last for about 400 years, which is a lifespan far exceeding the life expectancy of most monopolist legal orders.
In most formulations of anarchy I’ve seen put forth, the “police” are more like mercenary groups or private security than a reliable police force.
And your token example of Iceland is a tiny island nation that is easy to overlook, in a place that isn’t of particular strategic value and an insular culture. One could as easily say, “Look at DPRK. It is a success. It is a stable communist society.” People still die of starvation and it takes some severe brainwashing and control structures to keep people from escaping or receiving any news from the outside world that would shatter their world view, but it does exist.
You can find an example of anything working long enough through some measure of luck and a coincidence of factors that permit stability. It isn’t the most compelling argument, however, for that example being a model for a much more violent world at large, filled with antithetical ideologies and compelling factors that make one’s territory desirable to conquerors.
reliable police force
What’s that?
I never suggested perfect reliability. And it’s not like a police force can defend against anything. They’ll show up to take a picture of your corpse and seek the perpetrator out to imprison them. The punitive arm is far more effective at what it does. It still screws up. It still fails. But most people are comfortable in the knowledge that it will try.
Reliable for canine population control.
*opera applause*
Iceland has a tiny population, even today, and they’re mostly all related to each other in some way. Because of this and the way their last names make it impossible to identify someone as close family, they literally have smartphone apps so people can avoid dating inside the shallow end of the gene pool.
This probably puts Iceland as a whole into the area of small tribe or extended family.
Which is the scale of social units that humans evolved to partake in. Large populations stand to benefit from maximized decentralization even more than small populations do.
Plus, medieval Iceland had issues with out-of-control inter-clan feuding. Not exactly an example of “peaceful anarchy.” And the Thing (the ‘governing body’ of medieval Iceland) was more of a representative oligarchy than strict anarchy.
Without a standing army to defend against this (and a militia is no substitute to defend against seasoned, trained, professional soldiers),
I don’t think its so much that a militia can’t beat a professional army, its that war has become so capital intensive that a state-sponsored modern army has so much more firepower, intelligence-gathering capability, and command and control that a militia likely won’t stand a chance.
Assuming, that is, that the modern army has the will to win.
The rate of 20th and 21st century militias defeating state armies is pretty high.
The question is not will to win, but will to use the tools to win.
Both the Soviets and the US could have won in Afghanistan, but it probably isn’t worth the price to nuke the place.
The question is not will to win, but will to use the tools to win.
Not sure I see the difference.
What is an example of this? Most of the ones I can thing of have the big State Army devastating and killing the other by droves until they get bored and do something else.
Does vietnam count? I think it counts.
Afghanistan in the 80’s counts too.
Count as a a non-state army? I’d say it’s a stretch. The US still killed them far more effectively then the reverse. I don’t think a success story of “we’ll be slaughtered like cattle on occasion but the organized military will get bor d and leave eventually so- Victory!” Is a compelling strategy for anarchist defense. Especially when the defense still wasn’t anything close to an anarchist militia.
Vietnam doesn’t count. In fact, the “militia” part of that war ended in a pretty crushing defeat for the VC. It was won by the NVA (short for “North Vietnamese Army”), which was a sovereign army by any reasonable definition.
Afghanistan v. the Soviets? Maybe.
The only thing that might push Afghanistan in the 80’s out was the fact that the rebels were constantly being supplied by the US. If the CIA had never dropped Stingers to the Mujahideen, the Soviets could have kept them bottled up in the Panjshir with their Hinds indefinitely.
Which goes back to my point about how capital-intensive warfighting has moved “organic” militias very much to the sidelines.
That was a tie!
No Vietnam does not count.
The Viet Cong ceased to exist as an independent entity after Tet of 68, by Tet of 69 the few of them that were left alive were fully integrated into regular units of the NVA.
Further the NVA could never beat the US army, not even in small scale battles and their ability to win strategic victories out of tactical losses degraded as the war went on until finally by late 72 the war was essentially over, ARVN had finally started to demonstrate the ability to be an effective fighting force and by the end of 72 the US was basically out of the war with the exception of a few special forces units and some logistical support. Then a year and a half later the NVA invaded en masse, not with small groups of guerillas but with an invasion force larger than Hitler used to invade Russia during Operation Barabarossa. Even though this clearly violated the Paris Accords and would have justified the US bombing the shit out of those forces and more importantly their supply lines the American government did nothing. ARVN fought well for iirc 5 days waiting for assistance from the US Airforce and Navy but when we officially announced we were not interfering they collapsed.
It is a complete myth that the US lost the Vietnam to a ragtag group of militia, for all intents and purposes there were 2 Vietnam wars, the first one we won in 73 when North Vietnam signed the Paris Peace Accords. Then a second a year and a half later which we refused to participate in. Further even where the US did have military setbacks it was never the Viet Cong that caused them but regular forces of the NVA. The Viet Cong were terrifying to the individual soldier because they could crop up anywhere meaning they knew they were never safe even in rear echelon areas but from a military standpoint they were meaningless
Let’s look at the last couple of years. ISIS basically came out of nowhere and ripped up a huge chunk of real estate – along with all the military hardware included. Look up some of their home-made armored vehicles and UAV assets as well. Tore through the regular Iraqi army – such as it was.
Remember when they overran a Syrian airforce base that actually had some functioning MIGs still in the hangars. Granted I don’t think they ever got them off the ground – but lets use that as a point of comparison for future consideration.
Mostly what I was driving at there is that a militia may become unprepared, sloppy, and therefore at a skills deficit even if not at a munitions deficit. If an army is always drilling, practicing, out conquering or defending territory, tested in battle, etc. it has a much better chance to win.
Militias can win when they resort to tactics that large armies find abhorrent, dishonorable, and difficult to defend against. Guerrilla action and insurgency, for example. Trained armies tend to fall victim to similar complacency in their belief that they can win simply because they’re trained, and are unprepared for the psychological warfare of never knowing if they’re going to be hit in a surprise ambush or raid by those who will vanish into the night after a hit-and-run. But that’s not exactly a good way to sustain a population, to protect those too weak to defend themselves, and hold territory that needs to produce crops. It might work if a society is sufficiently Spartan: they build nothing that can’t be rebuilt, everyone is militant and prepared at all times, they desire to hold less material wealth, etc.
Martin van Creveld has covered this in detail. No foreign first world power has “won” a low-intensity conflict against the native population since WW2 , the Falklands being a possible exception characterized by a very narrow goal. Total war has been off the table and as a result, foreign powers simply cannot indefinitely hold territory in the face of restless populations.
I don’t think the Falklands would count, since the population of the Falkland Islands was and is overwhelmingly in favor of staying a part of the British Empire.
Yep, Red Dawn is reasonably accurate. That doesn’t really make anyone feel any better about all the atrocities, rapes, tortures, etc. that tend to occur under occupation. I mean, what consolation is “we’ll win, eventually”?
Total war has been off the table
See, also, “will to win”.
This argument makes a few dubious assumptions, namely that a professional military will always be better trained and/or prepared (modern iraq is a great example) and that the invading army actually has a desire to win. The militias will always have the stronger will because it is literally their entire existence on the line. It’s not just them that will die if they lose but their family and friends and homes and villages. Assuming that there is at least some form of equivalent firepower between the forces (not a strong assumption but not an impossible one either), militias can and have been successful. Hit and fade operations can weaken an enemy enough that a followup attack in a strategic location can break the invaders’ spine. The militias advanced knowledge of the local terrain would be put to great advantage in a scenario like this.
I feel as if you read two sentences and went off that. Already covered all that.
Also, I give you the occupation of France as a counterexample of the occupied having superior “will.”
I shall make a snide remark about French fighting efficacy and leave it at that.
The difference is in scale indeed.
There is a huge example of de-facto anarchy staring you in the face which has been ‘functioning’, more or less, for a thousand years.
Guess what i’m referring to?
Glibertarians.com?
Hitler?
The Donation of Constantine? (Sorry, Eddie)
Don’t worry, the faithful aren’t required to believe in the Donation of Constantine.
Never were required, and it would be fairly dumb today when I can’t think of any Catholics who believe it.
Saskatchewan?
The Templars?
[makes furtive Masonic sign]
The international community of nation-states?
Winner-Winner Chicken-Dinner
*the source @ the link is not very well-written (its a student paper), but it is more concise and simply-stated on this point than other sources
international law, courts, organizing bodies like the UN, etc. are all voluntary institutions which try and create some agreed-upon order out of a de-facto anarchic condition.
everything that occurs between parties in the international system is basically contractual, with no larger-authority enforcing those contracts other than the mutual interests of involved parties.
the history of this ‘order’ suggests that the most stable-state is when one actor (state) maintains a degree of hegemony over the others;
no doubt there will be obligatory remarks about how, “no one said anarchy is pretty”;
Every anarcho-capitalist that has been such for a few years has encountered the “anarchy=no rules, laws or restrictions” argument about a thousand times. And every time it’s a total bastardization of the concept. The word means “without rulers”, not “without order” or “without authority”. But if we can’t even settle on defining our terms in the first place, going into the ways that a polycentric legal order could or could not function would be a waste of everyone’s time.
He had the red and black star not the yellow and black. Definitely need to separate those two first.
Exactly. It’s anarchy not anomie. All ancaps are saying is that coercion is wrong. Most ancaps don’t even view anarchism as a political philosophy at all. It is merely an ethical philosophy.
The reason that argument keeps circling that particular drain is precisely because anarchy has proven very ineffective at establishing stable authorities and order. It’s like the communist who’s frustrated that people keep bringing up gulags, when we should be talking about how transportation of lima beans will be effectively coordinated under a socialist economy.
Well if you’re going off the example of anarcho-communists yeah, they fail. If you’re citing something like medieval Iceland or Ireland, those legal orders functioned and persisted for hundreds of years quite peacefully.
Not that anywhere was a paradise at the time, but constantly-feuding and constantly-invaded medieval Ireland is one of the last places in Christendom that you’d want to live in during most of the Middle Ages. Iceland fared a little better, but largely because no one gave a shit about it and it was hard to access by external conquerors. The second there was a real conflict of values (i.e., the introduction of Christianity), the system folded in on itself entirely — and even before that, the functional anarchist parts of its political constitution were essentially a dead letter once major families established themselves.
I don’t think you can hand-wave away those examples so easily. Lots of places historically were in the firm grip of centralized monopoly authorities and they were “constantly” feuding and being invaded too. That doesn’t necessarily reflect the efficacy of social institutions in those places, history is complex like that. I wish I could point out to you an example of an ancient or medieval, or early modern decentralized society with flying cars and warp drives, but alas history is little else than a tale of blood letting and suffering. Any case I raise you can always point to some kind of barbarism to hand-wave it away. Like telling a guy who favors 1950’s era jurisprudence that his preference will inevitably lead to Jim Crow and the Korean War.
And you can’t handwave away the fact that anarchist societies offered no improvement over (and were often worse than) statist societies that existed alongside them. Ireland was incredibly violent even by the standards of the time; England was easily more peaceful and prosperous and Scotland probably was, too.
Whatever else you can say about classically liberal governments, they delivered dramatic increases in security, prosperity and freedom for the people who lived under them and could be implemented in reasonable, non-radical ways prior to there being vast amounts of evidence that classical liberalism would be effective. The lack of positive examples for anarchists to point to or reasonable ways to implement really puts anarchy in the same category of communism in terms of utopianism.
Also = polycentric legal systems aren’t an exclusively anarchist concept and — in practice — have usually required a very heavy-handed authority at the very top to mediate the conflicts between coexisting legal systems (e.g., Ottoman Empire/classical Arab empires). These systems have broken down approximately when the authority broke down, as mediating these conflicts is very difficult even when one is attempting some kind of objectivity and impossible if these conflicts are perceived to constantly be mediated in favor of one legal system over the others.
This is an apt description of something that is not is a polycentric legal order, as evidenced by the “heavy-handed authority at the very top”. Note that federalism =/= polycentric legal order.
Likewise, acceptance of anarchy also requires belief in a faulty premise that there is no valid authority over an individual.
I feel like an anarchist could just constantly point an authority and validly ask “Why them?”.
But overall yes, I agree. Both philosophies require humans to have entirely different natures to function “properly”.
Because if not them, we get this.
+1 Farcical aquatic ceremony
Of course there is valid authority. It is the authority that an individual accepts voluntarily. That’s it. Insofar as I accept having a boss, it is a boss of my choosing. Not yours.
And when an individual who accepts authority A has a conflict with an individual who accepts authority B, who resolves the conflict?
The male youth of the respective authorities
An arbiter that is mutually agreeable to both parties.
And when they can’t agree on an arbiter?
Flip a coin?
And if they don’t agree to that?
And this all elides the question of what happens when the loser to the dispute declines to accept the decision.
Naturally everyone who likes to say anarchy can never work and everyone needs a ruler like to ignore the largest and longest running example of anarchy. EARTH. If you take off your tinfoil hat and look around, you will see that there is no world government. A whole collection of sovereign entities that manage to coexist without a supreme leader telling them what to do.
Well, sure, the sovereigns coexist (more or less). Its the periodic festivals of butchery that they throw to resolve their differences that are the problem.
Speaking of which, Anyone know how Groovus is doing?
Go ‘way, purging!
She got me right in the goddamn liver Morty! It’s the hardest working liver in the galaxy Morty!
I pinged him a few days ago. Haven’t heard back.
Absolutely. That is a problem. It is a problem that has always occurred and always will occur at every scale ranging for WWII to one asshole stabbing another over the last piece of chicken. No system will end bloodshed. And no system will create utopia. All ancaps are saying is that the initiation of aggression is always wrong. Full stop. No stipulations for the greater good. No slavery is freedom bullshit. It is a moral philosophy that condemns coercion.
Not really. Ancaps are also saying that establishing a state is ipso facto an initiation of force, which is not necessarily true in Magickal Theory Philosophical Dreamland — and ignoring the aggression that happens under an anarchist system. You are creating a logical equivalence between violating NAP and the existence of the state — one that I think is likely to hold in the real world, but since every anarchy has also exhibited that feature it proves far less than anarchists want it to.
There’s the small print there of said sovereign entities regularly engaging in conflict for centuries and leading to deaths of millions, and said destruction only really ending once global hyperpowers emerge that extort heavy influence on other powers that brings their ‘sovereignty’ into question.
In short states are not individuals, and even if they were this isn’t a good example.
It’s true that states are not individuals, states are more prone to aggression, more prone to high time preference and are all around a bastion of malevolence as a consequence of insulating leaders and voters against personal consequences for their actions. That actually makes it a great example because it shows that even these awful institutions that represent the worst of what social cooperation looks like, they still manage to get along by and large without a central authority making them do so, and the world still functions while more wealth creation takes place than is consumed by wars and statism. And in fact the states are, by and large, getting more peaceful towards one another as time goes on.
No, it is not. States lack the resources and ability to overthrow and rule the entirety of the world in a practical fashion, and for most of history they lacked the basic technology to even do so.
On the other hand, it has always been possible to install a Caesar to rule over others, and the history of vaguely anarchist societies coming into contact with more statist systems have overwhelmingly favoured states.
States literally do rule the entirety of the world. I didn’t say “hegemony”, I said the world’s leading powers could conquer and subjugate the whole world together if that was the game they wanted to play.
threading error
you think they haven’t?
point me to an example where smaller-states in the UN have ever managed to stop the US from doing what it wanted to do
I should do this to demonstrate that this is somehow relevant? Well I can’t because it’s not. The fact remains, there is not a single world government calling the shots and civilization carries on. That there are power differentials between states does not make it less of an anarchic order. It’s… polycentric.
and the semantic handwaving ensued
I’m sure the notion of “polycentrism” makes fascinating dinner-table conversation in North Korea
I’m sorry that you haven’t read enough literature using the term to warrant not dismissing it out of hand. Is there something about the concept of anarchy that makes you confuse it with radical egalitarianism? Because you keep raising the issue of power differentials as if anarchy requires everyone to have equal influence and power over everyone else to the same exact extent. Polycentrism essentially means having many competing centers of power and sources of law instead of one monopolistic entity at the heart of it all. But yeah you can just pretend that’s not what we’re talking about and tell me that I’m arguing in favor Juche ideology.
it is unfortunate that there is no emoji for “removing one’s glasses and rubbing them with a cloth while sneering condescendingly”.
actually that’s not what i’d meant by that reference.
I was talking about about how the Norks are constantly reminding everyone else in the world that they are the lone Holdout against the global capitalist imperialist running-dog Hegemon. And China doesn’t exactly back them up and go, “Yeah!”
not exactly ‘polycentric’, iow. Pretty much, “defy the world-order as defined by the super-powers? = get isolated and ostracized”
We live in a world of 190+ countries, and according to the routinely discredited Hobbesian view of human nature, a country like Monaco or Lichtenstein should not exist, they should all be subsumed in an unending series of perpetual wars of conquest. Turns out, people prefer cooperation to coercion. Were that not the case I doubt the species would have ever become civilized enough to enable us to have this discussion.
With Monaco and Liechtenstein, I think a key factor is “keeping one’s head down.” Make it so you can help out your neighbors without them going to the bother of conquering you.
And IIRC, after the first world war, Liechtenstein joined Switzerland’s security perimeter, so attacking them would have meant attacking the Swiss, which in WWII Hitler didn’t do – and he probably didn’t do it because he recognized Switzerland’s defensive capabilities and made a rare calculation to hold off attacking them until he’d devoured all the other countries.
Monaco in WWII
“The German Nazi regime had been aware of the advantages of an independent and neutral Monaco as a center for German international banking and commerce as early as 1933. In 1936, German Minister for Finance Hjalmar Schacht visited Prince Louis II and started setting up companies under laws of Monaco….
“…in June 1940…Italian troops marched straight to Monaco and occupied it. Hitler was furious and told Mussolini in no uncertain terms what to do and the Italian troops retreated. Following this scare, [Prince] Louis [of Monaco] publicly expressed his admiration and support for the Vichy regime under Marshall [sic] Petain….several German and Austrian Jews that had fled to Monaco were handed over to Vichy France….
“On November 11th, 1942, Italian troops occupied Monaco again and installed a puppet regime. After the death of Mussolini, German troops ousted the Italians and occupied Monaco in turn. The Germans remained from September 8th, 1943, to September 3rd, 1944. The search and apprehension of Jews was topmost in their agenda. They were hampered therein by local police whose members undertook it at great personal risk to warn people when a Gestapo visit was imminent. The Allied troops liberated Monaco on September 6, 1944. “
“Shoot twice and go home.”
Are you saying that I Eddied up the thread?
No, it’s a probably apocryphal story of Swiss badassery:
So your quote *wasn’t* about me? I find that hard to believe. 🙁
Liechtenstein is a freak accident that resulted from Napoleon ending the HRE and has always curried favour of a strong military neighbour who support them for strategic reasons (Austria mostly). Monaco has been occupied, controlled or vassalized by foreign powers for most of its history and only exists because of a dispute between France and Sardinia.
keep going. You’ve got a ways to go before you finish rationalizing how the remaining 30 or so microstates don’t really mean the peaceful coexistence is really possible.
Of course it’s possible, but if a microstate’s neighbor happens to be particularly cruel and ambitious, then catering to that neighbor is the obvious survival strategy, see above.
I’m not denying that they exist, what I think is that this is a moronic argument when it comes to trying to justify anarchy (and you know, the whole conveniently handwaving the actual conflicts that microstates have gone through).
“Oh my god, you mean if you have political, diplomatic and economic influence you can have a nominally independent smaller state next to a big one? Truly this proves that you can have an anarchy of six billion people.”
And yet Monaco is not simply conquered by France. Lichtenstein is not simply annexed by Austria. Lesotho is not conquered by South Africa. Why has Liberia not been conquered by some world power? I bet there’s enough military power between the top ten countries to conquer all of the other 180+ countries in existence. But they typically don’t. Chalk that up to a “balance of power” or to the high cost of offense vs defense, but then there’s no reason that those lessons can’t also be extrapolated to support the analogy.
I bet there’s enough military power between the top ten countries to conquer all of the other 180+ countries in existence.
Simple cost-benefit analysis. The ROI just isn’t there, so why bother?
That’s my whole point. Cooperation is far more lucrative than coercion.
I think “less risky” is more accurate.
and only “less risky” after certain pre-conditions have emerged. Its neither more-lucrative or less-risky when the only cost-concerns are “Will i win?” any given direct-confluct.
No it’s absolutely more lucrative. There’s no question or doubt that’s the case. Theft represents short term gain, investment and voluntary commerce represents long term prosperity. There is no doubt that cooperation is more lucrative than coercion and conflict because if that was the case the human species would never have advanced beyond it’s paleolithic level of development.
Why don’t you steal everything you eat? Why don’t you steal all the clothes you wear? Why don’t you just rape a woman every time you want to get laid? Because theft and coercion are not long term strategies for survival. Eventually, whether the government arrests you or if the property owner kills you, you’re free lunch will be paid for in some fashion. Coercion doesn’t work as well for obtaining resources as engaging in industry and commerce. There’s a reason criminals skew towards low IQs.
Conquering a country isn’t the only form of coercion. Why bother? just offer them the choice of joining the empire or being smothered. why murder them when we can force them to sell us stuff cheap?
the only reason your lauded ‘cooperation’ works is because other groups ganged up and made cooperation cheaper than fighting. But the fighting came first.
Said cooperation is also, as Gilmore points out, centralized around major powers who benefit the most from it (i.e. Great Britain and the U.S.A.) and use their influence to ensure that status quo. When others who are the more general outliers of the international system want to get a bigger piece of the influence pie, that’s when you get the expansion of powers like the Nazis and Soviets, and all the fun that brings with it. Is the Warsaw Pact reflective of successful cooperative anarchy?
No I’m afraid that cooperation has always been more lucrative. Not everyone agrees obviously and many people are unable to compete for resources if they aren’t stealing them. The fact remains that social cooperation trumps coercion. Taken to it’s logical conclusion, human existence should be a constant murderfest and times in history when we were more violent and coercive in social interactions, these should be seen as periods of great advancement, but that’s not the case. If human beings didn’t fare better from cooperating, they wouldn’t have survived long after climbing down out of the trees.
– 1 Sitting Bull Casino
Someone needs to read up on their economics. If initiating force could bring consistently beneficial economic outcomes into existence for the greatest number of people, then central planning should be the dominate mode of wealth production.
I’m shocked that the Native Americans, or Etruscans, or Aborigines, or Ainu, were unable to see the logic of this.
If initiating force could bring consistently beneficial economic outcomes into existence for the greatest number of people…
But that’s not the goal of those who initiate coercion, is it? While cooperation brings the greatest net benefit, coercion can, under the right circumstances, yield the greatest benefit to select individuals. There will always be people who realize this and caring more for themselves than the greater good will act upon it. A society needs a way to defend against this, and it almost always takes the form of states. Clever imperialistic individuals will work within whatever system they are in: in anarchy, they will form their own kingdoms, in states, they will seek to rule said states.
that’s a good point.
there’s an error in the thinking here that there is some necessary connection between “what is ideally the best arrangement” and “what ACTUALLY HAPPENS”
In fact it can be entirely true that mutual cooperation provides the best outcomes. But that’s not the way the prisoner’s dilemma ALWAYS plays out, is it?
the fact is that “what is ideally best” and “what is most likely given certain circumstances” are not at all the same.
they certainly were before larger and larger groups of state ganged together to say, “Stop doing that”, and agreed to sanction aggressors.
pretending that the reason there is no constant predation is “cooperation” i think is misleading
the reason countries don’t attack smaller ones is not out of some inherent respect for the smaller one’s ‘rights’. Its out of respect for all the bigger ones nearby who would consider that sort of behavior “concerning” and would radically alter relationships which were vital to its own self-perpetuation.
cooperation isn’t simply “a superior form of relation” that ignores disparities of power; its more ‘What happens between wars’
I don’t mean cooperation like everyone holds hands and works for the best interest of others. I mean cooperation like pretty much everyone working towards their own self-interest in ways that do not overly impede the self-interests of others because the costs of doing so would be too high. If I own a convenience store, one thing that stops me from burning down my competition across the street is the certain knowledge that the risks and costs of such an action would exceed the gain I achieve by eliminating the competition.
When it is said of humans as a species that they rely on “social cooperation”, that doesn’t mean humans give many flying fucks for the interests of others, it means they work towards their own self-interest and cooperate in areas of mutual interest. I don’t work for my boss for the betterment of humanity, I work for personal gain and he hires me for personal gain. We don’t really even like each other but that’s not the point.
Uh, it was, multiple times, until the agreement with Sardinia, I.e. Monaco historically maintained independence due to a balancing agreement between two large powers. Now their independence is nominally backed by foreign investment and international communities of nations aiming for a political status quo. Same goes for Lesotho, it’s a political compromise between two larger powers, backed by a post Second World War political order that defends its existence (i.e. Atlantic Charter stuff).
Why has Liberia not been conquered by some world power?
Backed by the world’s military superpower for the entirety of its history?
TL;DR If the British Empire or the United States of America didn’t exist as a ruling hyperpower with established political goals of maintaining minority nations’ sovereignty over the past two hundred years or so, you’d be damn sure there’d be a lot more empires carving their places out.
I just want to remind people that i tried to make this point above @ #10. #humblebrag
the idea that the international order is a successful example of ‘cooperative anarchy’ is insane. It only appears that way to the modern eye because of the hundreds of years of post-westphalian ‘rules’.
Respect for each other’s sovereignty didn’t just emerge ‘spontaneously’ after 1000 years of mutual cooperation. And the modern international order is only relatively cooperative because there are super-power states able to swing their weight around and insist that kiddies play nice.
I don’t recall saying that countries don’t infringe on the sovereignty of other countries or that some countries that are more powerful don’t like to place boundaries on the actions of others.
I also don’t recall saying that individuals in a free society would never infringe on one another’s natural rights or that some people and institutions would be more powerful than others and would place boundaries on the actions of others.
From where I’m sitting, the more you parse the analogy apart, the more applicable it gets.
that individuals in a free society would never infringe on one another’s natural rights or that some people and institutions would be more powerful than others
Great. I’m an individual in said free society that wants to infringe on other people’s natural rights. I control the most powerful institution and have a large group of people willing to back me up through violent and strategic means. I’m Caesar now, anarchy is aborted.
From where I’m sitting, the more you parse the analogy apart, the more applicable it gets.
As Gilmore and I have continuously pointed out, comparing the modern international order carved out by military dominance and blood to ‘cooperative anarchy’ is nonsensical and not based on an actual historical analysis of international relations.
You’re, quite frankly, spoiled due to American military and political dominance. You can keep saying that it’s applicable, but it’s not reflective of reality.
Counterfactuals are fun! It’s like reliving my childhood games where arguing about who got shot first by the imaginary bullet. Okay so let’s do this:
Okay so as a potential Caesar, the other firms that do not agree with your world view or if they just don’t benefit, decide to oppose you. And then they raise and EVEN BIGGER force to take you on. Caesar aborted. Problem solved.
comparing the modern international order carved out by military dominance and blood to ‘cooperative anarchy’ is nonsensical and not based on an actual historical analysis of international relations
Nonsense? No better yet it’s balderdash! Hogwash! Pish posh!
Listen, Hobbes was wrong about human nature. Sorry. We can see that in practice. Yes of course countries are not constantly murdering each other because of fear of negative bloody consequences. And once again, this does not detract from the analogy.
This would maybe be an interesting relevant point if anyone other than you had actually been referring to Hobbes, or talking about “human nature” at all, rather than referring to the visible, documented history of international relations…. which is probably the best proxy we have for understanding how an anarchic environment functions.
I don’t care if you invoke his name or not or even if you didn’t know who Hobbes was. But you are echoing his sentiment about human nature. You are making quintessentially Hobbesian claims about human social interaction. Funny now that you’re telling me that international relations are “the best proxy we have for understanding how an anarchic environment functions” after many posts of denying the validity of the analogy.
No, we’re talking about the history of nation-states and their relations.’
you’re the one waffling about cookie-cutter philosophies
I never denied the validity of it.
I pointed out repeatedly where you were simply describing a very-apt-analogy incorrectly.
Hey now, there’s no need to get pissy. I suggest a spray bottle and warm wash cloth to clean the sand out of whatever orifice you’ve got it stuck in. It’s a shame you so often can’t disagree with someone without taking it personally. I know it’s frustrating when someone won’t simply bend the knee and acquiesce to your position, but alas grown ups should be able to handle themselves when that doesn’t work out.
We are talking about international relations precisely as an analogy about humans, or groups of humans, cooperating in the absence of a higher unifying authority. Of course we’re talking about human nature, what the fuck do you think social interaction is? Obviously you don’t want to debate anything honestly. Something something cookie cutter handwave handwave. Great talk, Gilmore.
(he then proceeds to get very very pissy)
Okay so as a potential Caesar, the other firms that do not agree with your world view or if they just don’t benefit, decide to oppose you. And then they raise and EVEN BIGGER force to take you on.
Sound like tribalism. The kind that has gifted us with warlords, perpetual conflict, etc. Doesn’t sound like a recipe for a stable, peaceful society.
See, you think there’s no daylight between the first and second sentence there. I do.
The former is just analyzing what we can observe through 1000s of years of history of nation-states.
the latter is trying to form some all-encompassing argument about the ‘nature’ of individuals.
it is not necessary to make any conclusions about the latter in the process of making accurate observations about the former.
iow, I’m not interested in any philosophical argument about “why” things happen. I’m just interested in what happens.
My points to you have largely been confined to noting that your observations about how things have actually played out historically between nation-states are incorrect
making that point doesn’t require me defending some alternative view of “human nature” i never posited in the first place.
hope that’s clear.
No I’m afraid that cooperation has always been more lucrative.
Lucrative for who? Because I’m thinking there is a long history, and plenty of current examples, of despots who became fabulously wealthy.
And empires too, of course.
Cooperation is only superior to subjugation when the economics of subjugation are unfavorable.
What’s the lady castro worth?
pretty much the point i was trying to make, well summarized
i’d maybe add that ‘subjugation’ sometimes has a pretty wide spectrum that could be confused with ‘voluntary cooperation’ if you weren’t paying close attention. I hate it when lefty morons handwave about “Economic Imperialism”, but they’re not wrong that there IS such a thing. Its just that the things they tend to call that often aren’t.
Turns out, people prefer cooperation to coercion.
*Ponders mountain of laws enforced coercively, and apparent unending appetite for more.*
You sure about that?
Obviously everybody doesn’t prefer it. Some nasty folks like to play at being rulers. Most of humanity though? Absolutely. I think by and large humans prefer consensual sex to rape, I think that despite the past existence of Ghengis Khan and the Southside Strangler.
People generally seem to have very few qualms about coercing their fellows, was my point. As demonstrated by the democracies that have ever-metastasizing legal codes and armies of enforcers to ensure obedience.
Sure, they may not want to do the coercion personally, but that doesn’t stop them from demanding and approving it.
HOA. people are very happy pushing others around.
The city council anywhere. There is no shortage of tyrants, angry over something that happened yesterday.
ARE YOU SAYING STEVE SMITH NOT HUMAN?
The problem with earth as an example of successful anarchy is that the illustration doesn’t demonstrate the type of anarchy most anarchists favor. All the nations of the earth exercise an exclusive monopoly within a geographical region, but the descriptions of anarchy I’ve seen promoted by philosophic individuals is one that allows for competing governments within the same geographical region. The critics of anarchy don’t say that an anarchic society will inevitably yield a single government, just that it will inevitably yield geographically exclusive governments, just like we have now. Anarchy cannot sustain itself: it is a self-defeating proposition akin to pacifism.
I have nothing substantive to add because it’s the last full day of beach and I started on the Long Island iced teas before 10am. Continue to be impressed with the articles and comments here. It’s like the best of the comment section back at the Other Site without wading through troll shit.
without wading through troll shit
We’re going to get soft here.
I can do a good DanO impersonation, if anyone wants to see.
something cat something butts
Freedom is a cultural thing. How oppressive or benign the state is is really a function of how much violence the society believes is OK. In other words, decent people don’t really need a government per se, and a violent, aggressive people will remain violent and aggressive no matter what kind of state rules over them.
And, an anarchic society is stable so long as the culture that brought it into being persists. Medieval Iceland lasted about 300 years, with the final 50 years bringing so much strife that the inhabitants voluntarily submitted to have the Norwegian king rule over them*. This is not really the condemnation of anarchy a lot of people take it as; the U.S. has gone through several such cultural upheavals and revolutions in the past 300 years. Culture is always changing. And, like the seasons, sometimes societies have a culture that is tolerant and peaceable, and sometimes one that is aggressive and intolerant.
Nor does anarchy really deny human nature; rather it says that humanity flourishes when aggressive violence is not tolerated. The minarchists essentially believe that that is hopelessly utopian, that some degree of aggressive violence is required to prevent the sort of uncontrolled violence that bad actors in society would otherwise freely exercise. The anarchist argument is that one need not resort to aggression to suppress the aggression of these bad actors. That defensive and retributive violence will be sufficient.
For that to happen though, everyone needs to be realistic as to how an anarchic society would come about. Basically, a critical mass of people would have to decide to organize their society with so called public goods being provided by non-state means. They would have to develop the institutions that minarchists assume that only governments can provide. Absent such groundwork, yes, if I were to press a button and vaporize every person drawing a paycheck from the treasuries of the various government instantly, we would have a paroxysm of violence followed by the establishment of a new state that imposes peace and order. This is not a condemnation of anarchism any more than the collapse of russia into a kleptocracy is a condemnation of a limited constitutional republic.
As to regulating and normalizing trade, you will note that in the unregulated and wild-west world of computing, new standards and protocols are constantly being introduced, adopted, rejected or retired. And despite the lack of any real central authority, a set of global communications protocols and standards have become widely accepted and used. It’s messy, sometimes pig-ignorant, but it works pretty well.
My guess is that if we were to ever instantiate the monarchists’ pipe dream of a night-watchman state, that society would go no further. The harms of the state would be so low that people wouldn’t really care to worry about the little that remained. But that in no way refutes the idea that we don’t need aggressive violence to create civilization.
*Ironically the destabilizing of Iceland’s anarchic society was the result of the introduction of Christianity; the 10% tithes ended up enriching the chieftains who owned the land with churches, and the ersatz tax acted as a huge wealth transfer, leading to 12 families owning all the chieftainships – and those families were able to get away with violence and oppression that their ancestors wouldn’t have gotten away with in a more polycentric era. In effect, adopting Christianity unleashed a wave of intolerable violence.
so much strife that the inhabitants voluntarily submitted to have the Norwegian king rule over them
Trump offers to extend his benevolent iron rule to the embattled peoples of Fuller Park and Englewood; all they need do is bend the knee.
(I’m being facetious here, but your point did bring to mind something I wondered aloud at the old site awhile back. Yes, we could quit enforcing drug laws, and society would no doubt benefit from ending the perversions that policy has wrought. But would neighborhoods and cities plagued by drug-related gangsterism necessarily rebound? Not just eventually, but at all? Drug-trade violence is only partly attributable to prohibition. Prohibition simply provides an avenue, albeit illicit, for making a living. Small-time pot dealers go into the business because the money justifies the fairly low risk, plus maybe (like friends of mine) they take an horticultural interest in growing. But few people are going to shoot a rival if they have better options. Places where homicide is endemic haven’t got better options. Decades of anti-prosperity measures undertaken by Democratic party machines have wrung out any hope of economic revitalization. So we can end prohibition and let licit markets in narcotics flourish, but it’s not like those unemployed young men who currently gun down one another (and bystanders) over inter-gang rivalries are going to have any better options than before.
Not really germane to your point, maybe, but it speaks to the same problem of libertarian utopianism we often engage in. That said: fuck it, not my problem, end the drug war and cut spending.)
I disagree. Because if we were to end all the wealth destroying interventions, regulations, taxes etc that impoverish those areas, capital formation would once again be possible. So, yes, at year 0, there might not be much to do. But by year 2 or year 3, there would be a number of things to do. The german economy was utterly stagnant the day before the allies’ price controls were lifted. There was no food on the shelves of the grocery stores. There was a real possibility of starvation that winter. Yet, within three days of the price controls being lifted, food started appearing, because suddenly it became profitable for people to engage in food production and sale.
Similarly, there is a surprising amount of human capital in those areas. The land itself is pretty attractive – there’s a reason why those particular spots became densely populated cities. And the human capital and the location can, at a minimum, form the foundations of new enterprises that enrich those living there.
Granted. (Ludwig Erhard, from what I’ve read, is a saint.)
But assuming only (“only”) repealing prohibition is on the table, which seems reasonable since we can’t even defund PP without risking “shutting down” government, we’d be looking at the piecemeal end to prohibition and no economic or regulatory reforms. Probably, in fact, a whole slew of new technocratic laws addressing the drug market, not to mention a plausible return to the conditions that prompted calls for cracking down on drugs in the first place. And that’s the thread of the argument I was trying to unspool, that some moves in the anarchist direction are desirable and ethical in their own right, but we should be weary of overselling them.
Very true.
I don’t like drugs, and I don’t do drugs. I have lost one close family member to an uncontrolled drug habit, from overdosing – while in jail, no less. And it was most likely a suicide because he could not live with what he had done to end up in jail. During my teenage years, one of my friends fried his brains so thoroughly on drugs, that he ended up as a permanent resident of a mental institution. Another of my friends had the bones in his face pulverized by his drug dealer for reasons I still don’t know.
None of these people were either helped or hampered by the illegality of drugs. They most likely would have all ended up in the exact same situations had their drugs of choice been completely legal and freely available. My family member would have still gone to jail because drugs impaired his judgement enough to allow him to commit a terrible crime, my teenage friend would still have fried his brains, and my other friend would still have made stupid decisions that got him beat up for it.
I don’t think the desire to end the war on drugs (or the war on anything) is borne out of the delusion that somehow the world would be a perfect place of responsible drug use afterwards. It comes from the moral idea that your body is your property, and your property is yours to do with as you wish, and that it’s a near absolute moral good.
And beyond that, I do think those young men will have better options under such a system. While manufacturing/selling/using drugs is rarely considered a crime by libertarians, there is a lot of “real” crime revolving around black markets. Extortion, theft, violence, etc. Behaviors you don’t usually see in an open market. After all, when was the last time you saw CVS employees shooting Walgreens employees over turf?
So now you’ve cut down on crime incidental to a black market structure. You’re no longer locking people up simply for voluntarily using or selling a drug. And you’re not locking them into this life by robbing them of future employment/respect outside this structure by way of criminal records.
I personally hate drugs, but believe that legalizing all drugs would be an unqualified good for society.
Some of the problems you mention are also the result of various other “wars” on things. Like the war on poverty. Using force in order to engineer a society has a bad track record, and the more force that is employed, the worse off the people of such a society seems to be. We have tons of examples of this in just the last 100 years of history.
Great post. I think we’re done here.
“For that to happen though, everyone needs to be realistic as to how an anarchic society would come about. Basically, a critical mass of people would have to decide to organize their society with so called public goods being provided by non-state means. They would have to develop the institutions that minarchists assume that only governments can provide”
I agree with you that this is much more realistic. The problem is that in the long run, cultures respond to incentives and systems — the US, for example, is still in favor of liberal democracy because it has thrived under that system. If anarchy has problems with establishing and maintaining order that are intrinsic to its nature, then — as was the case with communism — eventually the culture will internalize correctives to these criticisms and put non-anarchist systems into place, as happened with communism.
My guess if were to see a transition to anarchy, what would happen is that new private institutions would supplant and eventually eclipse the state provided ones (eg using blockchain based protocols to record titles). This does happen, and we have a cultural amnesia towards past instances (eg mills are no longer maintained by local governments providing milling services to local farmers – if you want to mill your crop you have to sell it today and nobody knows that government provisioned mills were once a thing).
And, as it’s happening, I think people wouldn’t perceive it as being anarchic. It would be a natural evolution of society that would be undramatic and seemingly predestined to occur.
I read something a few years ago (By Ralph Peters, I think it was,) who was speaking about US intervention in the Middle-East, and how our attempts to install democracy there will never work because “Arabs require a degree of structure and order in their lives that seems horrific to the majority of Westerners.” Makes sense when that perspective is applied to all political systems.
good summary
When the King’s men decide that only the ideas and comments of those they approve of should matter, they make it illegal for you to do the math your self. Thank you Oregon I thought NY, CA, and NJ had stupid regulations.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/04/29/engineer_fined_for_talking_about_math/
Good fucking lord that nut punch hit real close to home.
This has been discussed before, and it’s not clear if they are fining him for mathematically demonstrating the flaws (which will be ruled unconstitutional) or for violating the technicality of calling himself an engineer when he’s not (“engineer” is an official and regulated professional title when applied in a technical setting, just like “doctor” is a regulated term when applied in a medical setting). Either way, it’s clear the board is retaliating against him for making them look bad.
people are quite unstable when completely given over to their own devices
I’m not. /guy in the back
But I will get a bit beserk-o if someone messes with my family. Or my property.
at least the ancaps make sense. Ancoms are lost.
If ancaps get a few seats in the oval office of a libertarian pres, I wouldn’t complain
I still think a court system is all we really need, dealing with our private contracts. with some enforcement arm to back that.
Why not have one guy, like Judge Dredd, to do both?
Can it be me? Id make a decent supreme ruler of anarchy.
I’m sure you wood. However, it isn’t you I worry about, it’s His Supreme Highness, Lord DOOMco IV, Tyrant of the Wastes, that becomes a problem.
Funny thing is, even in our very-much-not-ancap society, private courts, aka arbitrates, are vastly preferable to government courts by everyone who can move their dispute there. Hell, I’d take my chances in front of an arbiter over my chances in a court of law for a criminal charge.
At least as far as civil cases are concerned, it’s like a game of chicken – “we can negotiate or arbitrate this, or we can throw the dice on a years-long series of expensive legal proceedings…let’s work something out!”
I don’t mind this, and would not want for a monopoly of gov courts. I just think that a court system is pretty much the only purpose of government at the fed level.
Meh. Arbitration used to be generally superior to litigation, but it has gotten more and more litigation-like. I’m not a fan – I usually specify mediation as the “dispute resolution” mechanism in contracts, and if that fails, straight to court.
And (if the law is simple enough, well understood, and not likely to change), a court system could function without judges. Instead relying on parity in the decisions of multiple juries, isolated from each other and consisting of randomly selected individuals. This way courts could still be orchestrated by the state, but verdicts are handed down by one’s peers.
Ideally the entire law should be understandable to the average person, so they can comply with it. But this also means that specialization in understanding the law is no longer necessary (sorry lawyers and judges.)
That’s actually an interesting question: Is an ancap taking a job under Libertarian President to steer society towards anarchy inherently hypocritical?
As a job, appointed by the President? Maybe not if the electorate had been explicitly informed as part of the campaign platform that the President would undertake a program of governmental reduction.
As the appointee, why not? You aren’t going to create an anarchist utopia without at least some people rolling up their sleeves and burning some volumes of the US Code.
I assume any libertarian pres would openly talk of his or her plans to cut drastically, eliminate a lot, and remove several burdens from the taxpayer.
I doubt a person could win with that going in, but I can dream.
I don’t think so, but I’m sure some ancaps would throw a fit. the same way we saw a split of johnson being the LP nominee. How libertarian is libertarian enough, how much is too much? would someone who disagreed with Johnson being the LP nominee be ok if he ended up in the office of Trump a lot?
I think an ancap would be roughly in the same boat. The fact he is part of gov might be enough to disqualify him from ancapistan, and exile him into libertopia. or maybe they will be ok with it, and hope he pulls the libertarian closer to ancap.
The devil he says! CT governor Malloy admits that his large tax hikes aren’t working.
Because they’re not large enough?
The deuce he says!
In one respect he’s right, they aren’t achieving any of HIS goals. But to say they’re not working is to gloss over the huge changes in the economy that he didn’t expect.
I’m sure there’s a pithy phrase someone could haul out that encapsulates the issue.
I’m sure there’s a pithy phrase
Gov. Malloy is a moron?
That’s both a fair, and accuate working hypothesis, but as I note, he’s merely the most recent delivery mechanism for a profoundly flawed economic model.
CT has all the makings of Puerto Rico, sans appealing climate.
“…the state of Connecticut depends too much on its wealthy residents, and wealthy residents are leaving, and the ones that are staying are making less, or are not taking their profits from the stock market until they see what happens in Washington.”
You know, there’s been too much focus on preventing an Escape from New York. Maybe it’s time they tried to stop Escapes from Connecticut.
Just let me get out first, before they put up the electric fences and the machinegun posts.
The problem that Malloy and the previous governors have been creating is that they’ve relied on GE and hedge funds too long. They were easy to bribe and threaten, and when GE moved out to MA, receipts were bound to fall, from both personal and state corp taxes. While it’s true I live here, I have no sympathy for my neighbors. The drive to chase manufacturing away has been going on for years, and they’ll keep on electing people who continue doing it.
You see it all in that article. An unsustainable state budget that relies on the hedgies having regular blowout years so they can be effectively fleeced. Fact is that I don’t anticipate the hedge fund business making those kinds of returns again until after we have a bigass correction and rates going up substantially, and that could be a few more years out than CT can stay solvent.
Thank you for mentioning the New Soviet Man as it relates to anarchims. I’ve long thought that an anarchist system would only work if it was full of New Anarchist Men, who understand the premise *and* think it would be dandy if it was the reigning social order.
But, you know, that’s not human nature, and its better to find the right sized government that fits real human nature than an ideologically pure solution that’s worse than what we got. I think since we are stuck with Old Capitalish Man, the ideal government is real but very small compared to what it is now. I really like Russ Robert’s point in a recent Econtalk about taxes. If they were going only to roads, sanitation, fire, police, education, and national parks, basically no one would have a problem with government.
But other than roads, sanitation, fire, police, education, and national parks, what have the minarchists ever done for us?
(with caveats re education and national parks)
Brought peace?
The minarchists bring peace by bringing pies and cakes to cocktail parties.
Wait for it…
They made a dessert and called it peace.
I like how that list always comes out when arguing against any spending cuts, or any argument against libertarians.
It’s a classic Motte and Bailey argument. The motte is the “core functions” of government, and the bailey is the vast expanse of what governments actually spend their money and effort on. Government fetishists* dance and frolic in the bailey, with grand dreams of new government programs, expansion of existing entitlements, constant tax hikes, etc. But when you call them on it, they retreat to the motte and conflate every government program and expenditure with fire bridges, police protection, roads, etc. You can thus never cut government spending or authority because apparently scaling back to what was the established order just 5 or 10 years ago, or to the order that reigned for hundreds of years, would be tantamount to abolishing the whole thing.
* = Not anarchists, minarchists, libertarians, classical liberals, etc.
I wish I was better at pointing that out mid agrument. I suppose I could just yell moving the goalposts.
I don’t know what a fire bridge is, but I meant to say fire brigades.
Sometimes it’s fun to state this axiomatically, to see if they reject it. They usually don’t, of course.
For example with the “science march” :
“So are you saying that government spending on Science can never decrease?”
While I think the main ideas have been better debated by deeper thinkers above, the key element lacking in polycentric order is stability. To borrow a bit from mathematics, there are stable and unstable equilibria. A stable equilibrium is one in which perturbations to the inputs don’t upset the outputs for long, while an unstable equilibrium is the opposite: a perturbation of the inputs can lead to radical changes in the outputs that will never return to the original equilibrium. As anarchists are wont to point out, all political orders are in unstable equilibrium. This is true, strictly speaking. If you view things in such binary and simplistic terms, than this would seem to be the end of the discussion. Anarchy is no worse than even the best forms of statism on the measure of stability, and is in other ways much better.
But lumping all systems together as equally unstable is a “big lie”. If you had a system that could maintain stability under small changes and only destabilizes under large changes, and another system that can’t survive even the slightest of changes, then you’d be a fool to adhere to a taxonomy which groups the two together as indistinguishable. There is an important categorical difference between the former, which might be called quasi-stable, and the latter, which might be called properly unstable, especially when human lives and well being are the outputs. Statistically speaking, liberal statism has proven to be quasi-stable more often than liberal anarchy. That doesn’t mean anarchic, liberal(-ish) societies can’t exist or haven’t existed, only that they tend to be easily disrupted by external changes*. Since no social order can control every aspect of human existence, the question of resiliency can’t be ignored. Whether it is more important than the question of respect for natural rights may be a personal preference, but I think if you value it all (and any rational humanist must value it to some extent) then anarchy is an unacceptably implausible answer at the present scale of human existence.
* = This is sometimes called an “outside context problem” which I think captures it quite well; the best laid plans of mice and men…
I believe that every square inch of the planet should be private property. Whether owned by an individual, a firm, a tribe or even a group of locals (as described by Elinor Ostrom) or whatever works for the folks on the ground there.
I also believe that all useful functions that the are provided by the government now can be, and have been done better, privately.
That’s the direction I’m moving. And that makes me an AnCap.
So the question I have for the non-AnCaps is where does your resistance start? At what point in the continuum of privatization do you push back and far are you willing to take it.
What are you wiling to do to prevent X service from going private. How many folks are you willing to imprison or kill to stop it?
Roads? Mail delivery? Education? Space exploration? Health checks on eateries? Provision of money (as in banknotes), Justice issues? Environmental issues? Defense? (Those are huge areas that can be dived even further, I realize.) Health insurance?
I once asked a forum of Objectivists, who had been going on about the need for a state to apply justice, what would they do if I owned a city and that by contract all incidents including violent ones that would, in our real world, normally trigger police and government court action, were Torts? No one was arrested there are no prisons and the rest of the apparatus we know today would not exist. Would they invade my city and demand we do things their way?
No one answered except to repeat their mantra of only the state should be handling crime issues. Maybe someone here can do better.
I suppose I’m a statist by glibertarian standards, but I’d say that for certain serious crimes, tort status may not be good enough – some punishment may be needed to satisfy the ends of justice and deter others.
It’s possible the judgement would be so high the offender could not pay, and could not get another to pay and thus is seriously screwed. An online book I’ve lost the link to postulated that all of his assets would be seized, including his body and he could well be parted out if healthy enough.
Wouldn’t taxation or exclusion from libertopia/ancapistan be the worst imaginable punishments for people who value their liberty? Steal, and we will tax you for a while – murder and you’re exiled forever.
I must confess to have no idea how to control the perverse incentives created by those types of punishment.
What if someone has no money? If a homeless person kills a man for his wallet, what can you take from him as recompense? Does this give the homeless and poor a blank check to do whatever they want?
In my city there would be no homeless. But there might be poor people so the question stays the same. There might be charity groups wiling to represent the person to try and mitigate the award. But as i said above if you can’t pay you are out of luck.
Most people are “judgment-proof” against any damage award of more than a thousand or perhaps a few tens of thousands. And yes, there are some who are well aware of their de facto immunity against civil judgments and act accordingly. Setting up a system where being poor (or having your assets well hidden) meant de facto immunity from criminal law would probably not work well.
Then off to the organ harvesters you go then. Or maybe some sort of gladiatorial entertainment? In any event the person would be an outlaw and could be killed (or kidnapped) with impunity. That’s hardly a get-out-of-jail-free card.
Right, but you’re assuming that anarchist systems of justice would work well and be effective. If they do, then… problem solved and your question has no relevance. Under a non-ancap belief, we wouldn’t simply assume that these systems work well at providing justice, so building state institutions would be more a matter of establishing a system which provides more justice than the systems already in play, ruling on issues and enacting the results. We don’t feel bad about enforcing those results violently for exactly the same reason that an anarchist would have no problem killing an outlaw under the system you describe: in both cases, the person in question believes they’re acting in a just manner. It just so happens that classically liberal states have an unparalleled track record of fairness compared to other real-world models of government, and that anarchists at this point have theory replete with what most people see as unresolved problems.
But still you won’t invade my city, regardless? Because that’s all I need.
Obviously if they worked well, they work well and that’s that. There is no level of justice that I’d violate to end anarchy; there is, however, every expectation that we will need violence to end the injustice that occurs under anarchy as it historically has manifested.
IOW, when an anarchistic scenario results in injustice and we are able to implement a human process that furthers justice (say, trial by jury rather than by single combat), I’ll favor the solution which binds all parties to the results of such an arbitration. In the case of torts, if a person is able to escape justice by having nothing to take for torts and this is a problem which results in widespread injustice, that means supporting a justice system that allows for more penalties than simply torts.
TL;DR = regardless of whether on account of too much or too little state activity, libertarian non-anarchists react to societal issues according to the level of injustice in a society.
‘an anarchy’
I kept seeing that in the article. It underlies the problem with all of this.
First, leftist ‘anarchists’ of any stripe aren’t anarchists at all–they’re leftists. The ‘anarchy’ so desired in leftist end-states is the ‘anarchy’ of the hive. Thought has withered to the point where all there is is the state, you are the state, everyone you see is the state, the state is, and all keep it ‘alive’. It’s not anything a sane person would pursue.
Real anarchy isn’t a thing that can be pursued. It’s a state of being. Anarchy happens.
The stable anarchic ‘end-state'(or lack of state) arises when no human has needs that require anything but themselves to fulfill. At that point authority breaks down because no one needs anything an other can provide.
It’s a natural occurrence in the duration of a post-scarcity society.
The problem is WANTS. Even after a PS society passes the point at which most wants are also included, there is still the companionship of other humans. And it is this that ends the PS ‘anarchic state’.