“The pen is mightier than the sword.” Much has been waxed, wroth and poetic, about that phrase since it was first penned by Edwin Bulwer-Lytton in 1839. At first blush, it is a sterling statement as to the power of the written word; to entertain, to persuade, to transport the minds of men into other shoes and allow them to walk roads previously unknown and unknowable.
![](https://glibertarians.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/penmightiersword-300x209.jpg)
I still prefer my laptop.
At second blush – and second blushes are best blushes, since they are so unexpected – it is a testament to the ability to control. The sword can only kill a man; the pen can make him into something fit to make his mother cringe in horror.
Words are thought. Language makes up so much of who we are and how our brains work that a native language can be expressed with not merely a linguistic accent, but also a physical accent. Blind humans who have never seen the common body language of the speakers of their native language, will both use physical gestures to communicate and will also use similar gestures as those who can see them. Words are not merely things of our lips and tongue; they go down to the bone.
The ability to control the words of others is a blueprint to change their very thoughts. Society is rife with examples of altering what words mean or which words must be used in an effort to steer the conversation. Gun “safety”. Â Pretty much all of the media coverage of Trump’s campaign. The loss of perfectly functional terminology and colloquialisms: “-splainin'”, racist, fascist, liberal, feminist, Nazi.
Remember the push to stop calling people illegal aliens? It doesn’t matter which word one uses as much these days, as it’s all been lumped under the broad tent of immigration, of which one is either for or against. And being against immigrants makes the Statue of Liberty cry. You meanie.
We’re not banning homeless people, gods bless you sir, no! We’re just banning urban camping. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Insidious propaganda is insidious.
When words have been altered, taken – molded, primped, shoved into a tight dress and forced to pimp themselves on the streets for their masters – there often comes a push-back. Satire, mocking and Poe’s Law come into play. Frequently, the objects of this linguistic assault retake the word by embracing it and celebrating it. Pick the derogatory demographic slur, activists and cultural music will use it in earnest if given time.
This is not always as effective as intended. If in doing so we accept the new interpretation foisted upon us by those who seek to control the conservation, embracing a slur as a badge of honor is to win the battle but lose the war
Remember, the good football tackle doesn’t aim for the shoulders. Aim for the knees.
The first return for nationalism offers a definition as patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts. Wikipedia first line on it is: Nationalism is a complex, multidimensional concept involving a shared communal identification with one’s nation. Dictionary.com’s first two definitions are 1) spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation 2) devotion and loyalty to one’s own country; patriotism. Merriam-Webster dubs it thusly: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.
![](https://glibertarians.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/queernation-300x204.png)
Excuse me, I have bad news for you.
Google Trends shows that searches for nationalism have followed an identifiable pattern since 2004. Searches peak in November-ish and again in the spring before falling to an apathetic doldrum by summer. Searches have been trending upward since the summer of 2012, and sharply upward since spring of 2016.
You know what else follows that pattern? Election coverage in the MSM. And maybe searches for the weather too, sometimes the pattern isn’t as important as first blushes imply.
It would make sense that the language of the nation is particularly captured by nationalism when electing its national leaders. For the concept described in the aforementioned definitions, one can find it culturally expressed by the immortal Lee Greenwood, and no wonder politicians are so fond of borrowing nationalism’s evocative imagery.
What a surprise it must have been to the average voter to find the word in the media as a derogatory slur. Being a nationalist was bad and basically like Nazis. (TW: Scare quote abuse. It’s brutal.) Nationalism is gonna getchoo. It’s quite confusing, because sometimes it might not be bad? Context and qualifiers are key to understanding, since white nationalism is… well, you’d think it would be nationalists who are also white but let’s see what Wikipedia has to say this time.
White nationalism is a type of nationalism or pan-nationalism which holds the belief that white people are a race and seeks to develop and maintain a white national identity. Its proponents identify with and are attached to the concept of a white nation.
Well, that escalated quickly.
![](https://glibertarians.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/nazimarch-1-300x207.jpg)
When everything is Hitler, nothing is.
As a propaganda tool, it couldn’t have a worse basis in logic. Every redneck, pool player, bar rowdy and biker who ever closed out Karaoke Night with a communal Greenwood sign-along for all those left standing hears the message loud and clear: Look, nationalism is bad enough, but if you’re white and a nationalist, you’re this guy.
Say it insistently and often enough, and what’s the logical reaction? A hue and cry of white Americans shouting as one diversity-approved voice, “No! And we say again – no! We reject our heritage and traditional ideals, and the very familiarity bias with which all humans are afflicted, if the only other option is to be that guy!”
My word. It is to laugh. Some of them will just shrug and say, “I guess, sure, if that’s what it means now, then I must be a white nationalist.” In a linguistic climate which seeks to normalize the idea that being born pale says all it needs about the content of one’s character, whites have been called worse and it’s exhausting to try to correct the barrage. Plenty attempt to argue, but true thinkers know that this is just the rationalization of lesser minds at work and pay no heed. Heeding would be actively harmful, in fact, since the white voice is over-used and the construct of whiteness is complicit in oppression.
Oh! What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive. It likely would have been more accurate and fostered proper communication to describe Richard Spencer et al. as white-nationists. That might not have served the correct interests, however, and branding white nationalism dove-tails so handily with the efforts to cultivate racism as an actual significant problem, useful to those who would control us all.
Reject it. This land is our land, and those words are our words. It’s a fucked-up land, to be sure; like an old broken-in boot – comfortable, ugly as sin but still bringing a sigh to your lips when the worn leather molds around you knowingly, as few things can. We’ve stepped in shit more than we meant to. These things happen to us all, we’re only human. The soles are sturdy yet, though, and there’s life left in the good leather and craftsmanship.
We’re not the greatest country in the world… but we could be.
Globalism is a fine concept when it comes to marketplaces. When it comes to ethereal communal ties, telling people they aren’t allowed to enjoy particularly the land of their birth is akin to an announcement that following any one NFL team is discriminatory and verboten. Good luck with that strategy. Let us know how it works out. American society is highly and vehemently tribalized. It’s astonishing that people can be reliant on tribal ties in virtually every aspect of society, from politics to clothes and wine, and yet a familiarity bias for the country we were trained to pledge allegiance to is the one tie it ought to be unthinkable to feel.
Unthinkable? It’s practically reflexive. Are we trying to give people a complex?
Much like immigration is now a broad subject one can only be for or against, nationalism is being used as a linguistic tool, a buzzword to steer the conversation. White-nationists such as Richard Spencer have been vaulted to the limelight as the media cries wolf about scary racists/nationalist for their own ends. This is how easily we are distracted from the real work at hand. We cannot do what we should be doing, we cannot talk about what needs to be addressed, because we are too busy discussing the will-o’-the-wisps the mainstream media and politicians would have us chasing. Just because someone has offered you poison, doesn’t mean you have to drink it.
We’ll take the niggers and the chinks, but we don’t want no Irish
Or this here.
That scene was quite eye-opening to an impressionable 17 year old me.
My personal bone to pick, although maybe this is a rhetorical flourish. But the notion of linguistic relativity is not one with strong empirical support. Even its more narrow formulations appear tenuously supported. From what I have read it appears more probable that language is an evolution from a need to express inherent internal processes. Which is to say, even if a person is denied access to particular language they will create it sua sponte. Language can shape an external narrative, but it does not follow that it therefore also will control an internal narrative.
You aim for the ball when tackling in football, not the man.
-stupid English wanker
Ball, then man. Old school tackling before all of soccer become wussies.
And tackling from behind should be fine as long as you get the ball first.
Bravo. Thought to write such an article myself, but you have beat me to it.
Sapir-Whorf seems more evident all the time. Propaganda works. Altering the language works.
To a degree but I think it can be very weak over time. It’s the reason that the terms need to be constantly redefined. You can go from retarded to slow to special to mentally handicapped But if the view is negative you have to keep changing the terms to a more neutral term. In short a rose by any other name.
The euphemism treadmill is a bit different though. Comparing unintelligent people and assholes to people with mental disorders or diminished capacity is obviously very old. Some fear that it creates or enables the conditions for victimization of such people, so they devise ever more euphemisms to avoid the comparison.
Sapir-Whorf insists that language itself molds the way a person looks at the world, from the way words and idioms are used down to the sound inventory. If you can drub a word like “racism” from meaning “someone who believes his race is superior to all others” into “privileged (white) people with power (running businesses, in politics, teaching in schools, etc.)” in just a couple of generations, you’re trying to change the underlying person. That particular use of word “privilege” itself was invented because “white guilt” irritated them. They’re trying to live inside your head so they can mold you to being more receptive to other belief structures (i.e. Marxism and its derivatives).
Guess I should have posted here. But, as above Sapir-Whorf is not strongly supported by what we currently know, empirically, about how the brain works. The support comes primarily from various branches of social science, and it appears that the more recent and vigorous attempts to validate it in that realm vis. “color perception” have also been unsuccessful or at least uncontrolled as to all the sources of bias.
That’s interesting – I took Cognitive Linguistics at Berkeley about 25 years ago with some of Lakoff’s people, and they presented the color perception studies as something of an ace-in-the-hole supporting their theories. Link to more current info?
The most recent stuff I’ve skimmed is of the late 90’s early 2000’s vintage. There is this book by McLaurie, which I’ll admit I’ve not yet read and paper by his group that I’ve looked over. The debate seems to have increased as we’ve learned more about how we think. I’m interested to hear your opinions of the criticism since it looks like you’ve got a greater depth in the field than I do, I haven’t exactly gotten down into the nuts and bolts of it all.
Don’t we have a linguistics professor here?
Scanning through your links it looks like the academics are running in the same circles they always have, talking past one another as usual.
I was always curious to see a study where you take someone raised speaking a language that just doesn’t “do” color (there are such languages) and teach them a language that does and see if they can acquire color competency. Oddly I’ve never seen such a study (not that I’ve looked, tbh), but it may violate anthropological ethics to do something like that.
When I was studying it, the Cog Sci people were pointedly anti-Deconstruction in addition to being anti-Chomsky/anti-Universalist. They believed in “real-world-out-there” but one whose perception is very heavily mediated through language.
I was never that convinced that it was language creating the brain-programming and not vice-versa. It’s not hard to intuit that we use words as tools to “place-hold” distinctions we see. Without a word, the distinction is harder to make, but that doesn’t prevent you coming up with a word. If you couldn’t invent words to identify distinctions you perceive, languages couldn’t develop, really. So to me it seems self-evident that your native language can’t be an absolute barrier to perceiving and forming new categories.
But in the end, I doubt this question will fair any better in the long run than “do our brain-chemicals cause our emotions or do our emotions cause our brain chemicals?” I was always intrigued by T. H. Huxley’s speculation that we would find they are ultimately the same thing. I would bet the answer to the question “does language pattern thought or does thought pattern language” is “yes.”
“Without a word, the distinction is harder to make, but that doesnât prevent you coming up with a word. If you couldnât invent words to identify distinctions you perceive, languages couldnât develop, really. So to me it seems self-evident that your native language canât be an absolute barrier to perceiving and forming new categories.”
That’s pretty much bang on as far as I’ve been able to reason. It is also the line of argument which Bornstein advances based on the biology / mechics of human vision. Language, for lack of a better word, is an artifact of our internal processes. There is feedback but it isn’t in the drivers seat – so long as you are still able to independently observe the world.
I only comment on such stuff when I get paid to do so.
I take Bitcoin and thicc pics.
For some reason the question about whether there was a linguistics professor here doesn’t have a ‘reply’ button. But yes, there is one here. Not only that, but I work within the Cognitive Grammar framework and Lakoff is a buddy (although occasionally a little difficult to deal with, and we won’t talk about his politics…)
And yes, Sapir-Whorf is not generally accepted as a theory these days–in fact, most of the recent work by, say, Dan Everett, suggests the opposite–language slavishly follows culture. Interesting that you’ve read McLaurie’s work–he and my wife (also a linguist) did quite a bit of work together many years ago, and she’s even published in books examining his ideas. He is, alas gone now.
See this here? Its opportunities like this that make this place so interesting and why I stopped lurking. I have a hobby of trying to model human cognition so my research tends to overlap different areas. Do you happen to have any of Everett’s works handy for my evening reading? Also, if I may abuse your expertise, where is a good go-to for an understanding of current models and their relative strengths/weaknesses?
@Detroit Libertarian
Good to see you here.
While it’s true that S-P, in its strong linguistic determinism form, isn’t accepted. I think one makes the same mistake that John McWhorter does when claiming that S-P has been thrown to the trash heap of linguistic ideas. There are linguists and cognitive scientists presently working within the framework of weak S-P, aka linguistic relativism, and doing good work. I’m sure you’ve heard of Lera Boroditsky, no? I think the extent to which language and thought impact one another and the directionality of that impact is still an open question.
I’ve seen the color studies. I also used to be halfway fluent in Spanish. There was a couple of years where I was using it so much that I was thinking in Spanish, instead of thinking in English and then translating it.
Purely ancedotally, I think the language guides your thoughts down certain paths; it makes some connections more obvious than others, if that makes sense.
Dan Everett’s first major work is ‘Don’t sleep, there are snakes’, but he’s written many other books recently. As you might expect, all linguists generally know each other (I know Dan too, for example). I know Boroditsky by reputation, but haven’t read much. I’m primarily a phonologist/phonetician, although I’ve worked in syntax and semantics as well. I think the color stuff is the most persuasive, but I’m still a little skeptical of the directionality of the causation.
Just looked her up and realized she did some of the stuff on body orientation and language, so I do know her work. Intriguing. Nice to see linguistically-oriented folks on this list. Glad to be here. Sorry that there needs to be a ‘here’, but that’s for another time.
Well, there’s also “economic nationalism”, when lefties are whining about outsourcing and whatnot. But now that a TEAM RED president is trying to repatriate jobs, the lefties are all against it.
Like “glibertarian?” đ
Much to chew on here, but this really strikes a nerve with me. Maybe its just the habit of a lawyer, but I find that settling the definitions of words is essential to having a rational conversation.
I think libertarians tend to be instinctively “originalists” when it comes to the Constitution for just this reason – the Constitution only serves as a bulwark against the state if the words (“shall not be infringed”, etc.) are not constantly redefined. The end game of “words mean what I want them to mean” is the perversion of the 1A into a positive right against being offended or not being associated with.
OT: Remember what a boob Trump was when he said something about immigrant crime in Sweden? Well, he played the same game with that as he has played so often and successfully in the past. During the campaign, he said illegal Mexican immigrants were committing crimes. Everyone called him an ignorant bigot, but the issue of immigrant crime was now foregrounded, and lo and behold within a week or two we had a high-profile killing by an illegal immigrant. Same thing in Sweden – he foregrounded the issue of crime by “refugee” migrants in Sweden, and right on schedule, we have rioting in a “refugee” enclave:
Swedenâs official Twitter account â which is operated by a different user each week â tweeted at Trump on Monday morning: âHey Don, this is @Sweden speaking! Itâs nice of you to care, really, but donât fall for the hype. Facts: Weâre OK!â
Hours later, the Rinkeby riots began, with a second wave starting around 10:30 p.m. Seven or eight cars were set on fire and many stores saw looting, . . .
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/02/21/rioting-erupts-in-immigrant-dominated-swedish-suburb.html
Did they delete the tweet?
Probably not. They’ll spin it into being Trump’s fault by using hate speech to make Swedish refugees feel unwelcome and the rioting was defensible retaliation to internalized racism in the Swedish people.
sounds good to me!
/nbc
It’s possible to have a rational conversation with a lawyer? :-p
Sure, as long as you realize the outcome will be “Huh. I guess you are right, after all”.
I assume you’re a litigation guy?
Nope. I’m a boardroom lawyer, not a courtroom lawyer.
OT: That’s a career goal of mine, long term. Any career advice for an aspiring transaction cost engineer? My contract on this clerkship is up in about 6 months so its time to start looking…
It helps to be something of a generalist who is well acquainted with your client’s business (I’m a General Counsel).
I try to keep in mind that my currency with my bosses is my credibility – be willing to spend the blood of underlings to protect it. Actually, the best way to preserve your credibility is to keep your yap shut unless legal advice is needed, and then giving measured legal advice. I find that my natural arrogance comes in handy here – I present a serene confidence in myself as one of the best hospital lawyers in the country.
Aside from having enough technical/legal and business knowledge to be, in my CEO’s term, a “trusted advisor”, success usually turns on communications skills (knowing how much and what kind of information the bosses want and giving it to them concisely (pro-tip – bosses are rarely fascinated by legal minutiae)), and political skills (in my case being able to spot a political conflict coming and getting the hell away from it be retreating to Mt. Law and refusing to leave until the children have stopped squabbling).
You can talk to a lawyer, but if you want them to answer, there’s a fee.
/just a little joke
Indeed. Works for doctors, too.
“Pre-med, Pre-law…what’s the difference?”
/more truth than fiction
That’s the crux of the whole thing. “Shall not be infringed” as been, well, infringed upon for years. As language continues to “evolve”, I fear we’ll lose more and more of that, as activists, legislators and judges decide that our freedoms no longer mean what we’ve understood them to mean for centuries. And that’s dangerous.
Just a nitpick – the key phrase is “the freedom of speech, or of the press.”
What is that freedom? The text doesn’t actually specify whether it includes, say, copyright violations, talking loudly in the library, direct threats, libel, etc.
To see if the phrase encompasses these things, analysis of the original public meaning of the Constitution is needed.
To pull on a thread at the risk of being overly general… We only started to see legal challenges under the 2A after everyone who understood what it “meant” was dead.
Also, when certain people suddenly gained the rights not initially intended for them.
I don’t even try to discuss socialism without defining it first. Too much wishful thinking, motte-and-bailey horseshit to deal with.
Speaking of, I’m currently reading The Problem With Socialism. It’s very good so far.
That was supposed to be italicized. [i]If only there was a preview or edit button.[/i]
Yeah, it’s nerve-wracking, not to be able to preview. Use “em” instead of “i”, and the pointy brackets that look like less-than/greater-than.
That’s only because you haven’t deconstructed the text of the Constitution yet.
/Derrida
If you’re not just throwing his name around as a shorthand insult for the intellectually lazy people who took one class on structuralism and post-structuralism and wrote shitty Master’s theses that used their misinterpretation of deconstruction and differance to write historical fiction. You could read this. And get a fine overview of his critique and how he fits.
Sorry, that came off snarky and personal and wasn’t meant to be. Should have said, “Here’s a good article on what Derrida was actually about for those who care.”
^ This.
Derrida is hands-down one of the most interesting thinkers of the last half-century or so. Academics who think they understand him are some of the most aggravating, since many seemed to take deconstruction as “anything means what I declare it to mean,” and it becomes a sort of purified authoritarianism.
People who find the current culture of academia annoying, however, should know that Derrida has been a persona non grata since his attack on Marxism is the early 90s coupled with his defense of Paul de Mann’s pro-Nazi editorials written during the occupation. Derrida’s being himself a Jew in no way shielded him from accusations of pro-Nazi sympathies.
Deconstruction is a useful tool, nothing more, nothing less. Questioning assumptions serves a purpose in achieving deeper understanding. My derision generally comes in response to those who would deny any stable meaning to language, and accept moral relativism.
I would say that Derrida’s claims that there is no permanent context has been pretty well confirmed by the semi-literate college graduates who write contextually unaware articles that make unintended arguments against the author’s point. Read Vox for a month.
It’s a tricky thing, since meaning is not stable. If it were, there wouldn’t be different languages in the world.
OTOH, there is an analogy to be made with geology. Mountains and continents are not stable, either. But they are stable enough to build buildings on them and not worry that the ground is going to melt away beneath us before our houses fall down.
To me, language is like that. It is inherently relative and unstable. But your language is not going to change significantly over the course of your lifetime, so it’s okay to operate under the pragmatic agreement that words have (reasonably) stable meanings. Because they might as well, really, for our daily purposes.
I think that’s a good description of it. I was trying to generate a similar metaphor in my head that would convey the same idea, but I was coming up with normal distributions and standard deviations, concepts that don’t quite get the point across.
Hence the need for operative definitions fixed to a baseline if you’re trying to build a stable system of laws. What kills me is how rarely decisions ever bother to check or build that baseline.
You want to know how incompetently ObamaCare was drafted?
They never defined “Health Insurance Exchange”.
That’s how incompetently.
Sounds about right. Why make the task of interpreting a statute easy for everyone? At least when I was working with engineers I could get them to quickly grasp the need for definitions in the requirements as there is an inherent concept of standards. Probably no way to fix the problem short of becoming a legislator and demanding amendments to any bill coming through your committee. Of course, that’s why I guess I’m more interested in transnational stuff these days… its easier to write better contracts in as much as you’ve less individuals to convince of a common understanding.
“…settling the definitions of words is essential to having a rational conversation.”
Exactly why the progs are always trying to pull the rug out from under the language and why we have doctoral thesis’ submitted on why we should dispose of rational thought, objective truth, etc.
In the end their rationale is that of an authority figure demanding obedience and screaming FYTW. Progressivism is a one legged stool and that leg is ‘might makes right’.
Has this been covered? Either way – very related.
New Republic: Trump Has Turned the GOP Into the Party of Eugenics
Eugenics in right-wing whack-job country Sweden.
Its weird how they manage not to mention any of the American principals who drove eugenics. Remember when that super conservative Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes writing “three generations of imbeciles is enough”? Or how about arch-Republican Woodrow Wilson?
That’s pretty much a blood libel by TNR.
Don’t you know all of the racists in the Democrat party became Republicans. /Liberal
Yes, somehow, the Republicans all assemble to do things like end slavery and send in the Army to integrate schools and vote for the Civil Rights Act, and then magically transform into Democrats. Which, as best I can tell, only Strom Thurmond did. Of course, he was old enough to have actually owned slaves.
There was a big game of Red Rover on the Capitol steps shortly after the Civil Rights Act was signed into law. The Republicans yelled ‘Red Rover, Red Rover, let racists come over!” and that’s what happened. Strom Thurmond was just absent that day and never got the memo.
Derp.
Jonah Goldberg’s book Liberal Fascism addresses how The New Republic cheered forced sterilization and eugenics. He has a nice piece where he talks about how the Left doesn’t know their own history, and thus never feel obligated to defend it. Another neat rhetorical trick they use is that the sins of the right are the sins of the right, but the sins of the left are the sins of America itself.
So it wasn’t FDR, huge majorities of his party in both houses of Congress, and 7 USSC Justices he appointed who interned the Nissei, it was America itself, all of us.
Wait!
The New Republic published something that was simultaneously smug and yet full of blisteringly ignorant stereotypes informed solely by the author’s prejudices?!?!?
I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
Your winnings sir.
The New Republic was, once upon a time, a serious (if usually wrong) magazine. At this point, though, it’s on a level with Salon and HuffPo.
Derp sells.
hate-clicks
The new editors “broke shit” all right.
They had a period of non-insane liberalism around the 1980s – but they were founded by Wilson and their editors included MIchael Straight, who admitted he spied for the Soviets, and Henry Wallace, a total com-symp.
At least the magazine used to be literate.
founded by Wilson *sumpathizers*
Is Wilson sump what Trump is trying to drain?
I am trying to remember a word…it’s right on the tip of my tongue…It starts with a P…Pro…Prog, no Proj…Project? Project something. Help me out here.
Project Runway?
Maybe its just the habit of a lawyer, but I find that settling the definitions of words is essential to having a rational conversation.
It’s not like people are using completely idiosyncratic definitions of “fair” when they catalog libertarians’ crimes against humanity.
Actually, they are. “Fair” is an inherently subjective concept. To us, “fairness” means one thing (results achieved in the absence of coercion, perhaps), while to them it means something else (results that don’t hurt my feelings seems to be popular).
The central distinction between the conservative and liberal, as those terms are applied in the US political spectrum, concept of fairness is one of fairness as “equality, or equality of outcome” vs. fairness as “proportionality, or equality before a ‘process'”.
Not iron laws or anything, but . . .
Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcomes.
Equal rights do not guarantee equal opportunity.
Of course not. If it did, I’d be the starting catcher for the Yankees, drive a mint-condition 1968 Charger, and be married to Kate Upton.
I had every opportunity to do all of those things, but since I’m neither a gifted athlete nor a rich, handsome man, it didn’t happen. Trite though it may be, I’ve never heard anyone give me a compelling reason why my lack of baseball talent/money/hot women is any less unfair than the things they get exercised about.
Exactly, but when engaging in political discourse with the left and the right we really need to understand how they’ve framed things. When we talk about equality and fairness under the law, we’re talking about a system that is guaranteed to result in ‘unequal’ outcomes. This is what incenses the left. I’m still working on a fully general counterargument to the normative premise that life should be “fair”. That is where the left is operating from as a first principle which makes discussion on the basis of an empirically derived set of first principles really damn difficult.
Everything about life in this universe is unfair because that concept only exists in our minds. There is no empirical evidence of it’s existence, only people’s feelings when they see a particular outcome, usual one that has been manipulated to be ‘fair’. That usually amounts to manipulating an outcome to be less horrible than it naturally would be. It is entirely subjective and thus a useless term.
That’s where I’m sorta stuck. Your answer is empirical but what I think I’m wrestling with is the is/ought problem. Effectively, your telling someone who thinks the universe ‘ought to be fair’ (and, who reasons therefore, it is moral we should use force to make it that way) that either: 1) their definition of fair is wrong because ‘the universe is not currently fair’ or 2) there is no such thing as fair ‘because I reject the premise of normative fairness’. That doesn’t directly attack their premises. I need an argument that works while accepting the premise that the universe ought to be fair.
I think it would be something along the lines of, “any attempts to use force to make the universe more fair either 1) compound the existing unfairness or 2) result in no net decrease of unfairness.” With the goal to be driving a morally rational actor to consider that forcible meddling is therefore an immoral position to take or at least arbitrary and carries the risk of being immoral.
If you can’t get someone past “the universe ought to be fair,” then you have a tough row to hoe from the start. Suthenboy is accurately saying that fairness is not even a thing outside of our minds, but I doubt the people you have in mind are going go there with you.
When you go a step beyond that to someone who defines “fair” as “equality of outcome,” you’ve got to attack that first before you can go anywhere else. And the only way to attack that is to point out that equality of outcome is not fair, pretty much by definition.
You have to do a sort of reverse “Parable of the Vineyard,” but the parable works quite nicely to make the point since the spiritual lesson of the parable is so strongly counter-intuitive.
In summary: vineyard owner hires a bunch of workers in the morning to work all day for one coin. Over the course of the day he realizes he needs more and more workers, offering to pay each one coin.
The workers hired in the morning are upset about this, since the workers hired at the last minute get the same wage as those who have worked all day. The reason Jesus uses this as a parable and explains why this is fair is that we intuitively see this as unfair,* and I think the person/people you are looking to persuade will agree that it is unfair according to their understanding of justice.
At that point (if you can get there), “fairness” can only mean “same rules for everybody, regardless of outcome.”
(*With a robust understanding of contract, however, it is absolutely fair, since everyone made the agreement freely, and with a robust understanding of theology, that’s not even what he’s talking about anyway.)
I remember that now! I’m so far from Sunday school I should maybe brush up on my theology. But yes, with some of these people its been a tough row to hoe. To the point that if I were to identify the religious source of the parable it’ll probably undermine the ‘credibility’ of the argument. I’ll work with this, I think it will have a good payload in “creation of unintended and still sympathetic victims” which may cause those processes to halt on an ambivalence fault.
I would even say “Equal opportunity guarantees unequal outcomes”.
“Fairness” is one of the biggest leftie weasel words. What does it mean? Nobody can seem to tell you. They’ll usually just reason in a circle and say something like “well, fairness means giving what is rightfully owed”.
If you ever hear a leftist applying the word “unfair” to the current minimum wage, payday loan interest rates, CEO salaries, or anything else, really press them on what their definition of “fairness” is. It’s interesting. They’ll never be able to give you a clear definition, yet they seem to think that they can just visualize some economic transaction and pronounce it “fair” or “not fair” within a few seconds.
I always tell people if we’re not playing baseball or softball then I don’t care about what you think is fair as it’s definitely not properly defined.
Globalism is a fine concept when it comes to marketplaces. When it comes to ethereal communal ties, telling people they arenât allowed to enjoy particularly the land of their birth
This is my frustration with open-borders libertarians. Immigration is not solely an economic issue about who gets to do business in a certain geography. It is a much more primal issue than that – humans are inherently pack animals, tribalistic, if you will. Treating a society as a purely economic arrangement is hideously blinkered, and is actually a Marxist concept. Immigration is about who will be a member of your community, not just who you will buy and sell from, and people will have a say about that, regardless of what they are told by their betters. Immigration law addresses a much bigger question than who you can do business with; pretending it doesn’t isn’t helpful.
humans are inherently pack animals
Disagree.
The Donkey party hasn’t convinced you to shoulder your share of the burden for the good of us all?
While there are the occasional individuals who are not tribal at their core, they are a small minority.
I thought he was cracking a joke about the dual meanings of “pack” animals.
There are animals that run in packs (wolves), but there are also beasts of burden that humans use to carry packs (donkeys).
I was going with “run in packs”. Which is how we are wired.
Meh, I tend to classify us humans as, “Inherently commensal, mutually social creatures.”
I find I learn a great deal about human dynamics by studying the dynamics of pack animals. Mainly, but not exclusively, dogs.
I’m going to start calling this the “Cesar Millan Fallacy.”
There is a huge difference between human beings and most other mammals on the planet that greatly affect the structure of species sociality.
Want to take a stab at what it might be?
I’m going with being bi-pedal. It can’t be our brains because too many humans have shit for brains.
@juris imprudent
Actually, what I was going for is that human females don’t go into “heat” like most other mammals do. When you can only produce offspring during a limited window, you can be damned sure that the fittest male is going to a.) keep as many females to himself as possible and b.) establish a pecking order to ensure that he will have unfettered access to his harem during that time. When females are receptive to sex at any time, you find that social structures are much more “chill” and less hierarchical.
But our point is that only the people who are directly involved should have a say. You own the apartment building? Then it’s your call whether you rent to left-handed lesbian eskimo midgets. Not mine. Not the lady living next door who gets the vapors whenever she hears people speaking a language other than English with a Mid-Atlantic accent. Of course, you might decide not to rent to left handed lesbian eskimo midgets because you are convinced (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant) that their handedness makes them undesirable, or that they might scare away other renters, or that they smell of kiviak and you hate it, or that midgets are highly prone to criminal behavior and even terrorism.
But! If you want to rent to them, or sell them bus/airline tickets, or hire them, it’s not my place to force you to stop!
We get that people are tribal! But we don’t see those tribal impulses as justifying forcibly preventing people from engaging in relationships they want to engage in, for the same reason that I wouldn’t use force to prevent my brother from hanging out with friends if I were to disapprove of them!
But our point is that only the people who are directly involved should have a say.
But our point is that only the people who are directly involved should have a say.I think everyone is directly involved in their community. It is the human environment or context in which people live their lives. Its interesting that your example (who you rent to) is an economic association. Not dispositive, because I can easily come up with non-economic associations to make the same point.
We get that people are tribal! But we donât see those tribal impulses as justifying forcibly preventing people from engaging in relationships they want to engage in
That’s the rub that makes immigration such a hard topic. It is foolish and ultimately suicidal to ignore the primal drive to have a congenial community. Freedom of association is a complicated thing when you are talking about immigration. On the one hand, a pure negative right freedom of association would invalidate all immigration restrictions (somebody wants to associate with known criminals, after all, or wants to associate with someone who has a communicable disease). In the context of who you will share a community with, your (negative) freedom of association sure starts looking like a (positive) freedom of association for the immigrant – they get to associate with me via membership in my community regardless of whether I want to associate with them. There’s a bunch of Swedes right now who don’t want to associate with “refugee” migrants, but they aren’t given that choice because the migrants are now part of their community whether they like it or not.
It seems like migrations is extra-hard for rights-claims and mitigations because people are showing up in a new legal framework (or want to) and have inalienable rights once there. So not only are you trying to find an already difficult optimum of rights/harms tradeoffs between established parties, you also get to throw in new parties who may or may not agree with your definitions of rights and harms. I can’t imagine why this would be a thorny issue.
If a right is inalienable it’s your right even if the place you were born violates it. You don’t gain an inalienable right by crossing a border.
Having it recognized and defended by a court and State does. It goes from not our problem to our problem.
It’s because the way an immigrant arrives in a community is frequently economic! And the immigration laws essentially outlaw economic activity. They don’t pass laws forbidding churches from allowing Mexicans to worship anymore. Even Iranian women are allowed to marry American men.
The reason for this phenomenon is simple. To support one’s self, one has to engage in economic activity of some kind. Sure, I can marry some Iranian woman, support her on my income, and she can be a kept woman indefinitely. Sure, a Canadian could come as a guest of the local baptist church, and live off their charity indefinitely. But immigrants that don’t engage in any economic production, who soley act as consumers whose income is the product of gifts from a spouse/charity will always be a tiny number absent some massive welfare scheme as the Germans and Swedes have put in place.
So the economic rules that prevent people from doing business with immigrants, are the tip of the spear. IF you want to prohibit or severely limit immigration, simply outlaw people from hiring immigrants! If you want to make immigration unattractive to the prospective immigrant, make it impossible for him to find a place to live, to get a job, to get a bank account, etc.
Moreover, the cracks in the wall are often economic ones. When blacks started moving from the south to the north, they supported themselves by getting jobs from people who didn’t give a shit about the color of their skin, or hired them because they were so damn cheap! Polite society could sniff at them, the eugenicists could fret about the dangers of mongrelization, but the profit of doing business was sufficient that many people were willing to ignore the disapproval of their communities and do business with these unwanted aliens.
So, to limit immigration, one has to attack economic relationships between the native and the alien. Ignore economic interactions, and aliens will have a much easier time establishing themselves in the community. Take advantage of prohibitions on economic activity, and only a tiny fraction of would-be immigrants have a chance to enter the community legally.
I am so glad you are here, tarran. These are very salient points you make, and do have to be considered in the area of ideas.
/USA expat and current emigrant & immigrant
I’m not disagreeing with you at all, tarran. The economic sphere is critically important, and one that immigrants (should) have to succeed in. But its not the only sphere.
In fact, its mainly the presence of the welfare state that creates the current immigrant kerfuffle, IMO. Economic success by engaging in the economy pretty well forces a sufficient degree of socialization to the new home country to make you an adequate community member. Sink or swim is a pretty decent filter/assimilation tool.
Unfortunately, that’s not what we have. In the absence of that, we have to have other more regulatory filters, or we are all too likely to get to a point where the lack of a cohesive community will take us to some very ugly places.
I can see pragmatic libertarian arguments against open (or fairly open borders) but I have difficulty seeing ones that are consistent in terms of principles.
I admit it’s a complicated issue, but I tend to see those cases where there’s a complicated intersection of people’s interests and rights as the places where we should limit government intrustion.
Its weird how you approached this piece trying to purposefully unpack the terms you were using…. but by the time you got to “Globalism”, you were perfectly happy to toss it out there like it means something obvious and it needed no similar self-reflection.
I would argue that there is actually not a single person out there who would describe themselves as a “Globalist” ….
(regardless of how ‘free trade’ + ‘pro immigration’ they are)
…. just as there is basically no one in the Foreign Policy world who describes themselves as an “Interventionist”
Both terms are used by people as sneer words to encompass ‘policies they don’t like’, attributing a non-existent, over-riding ideology to people who disagree with them on those policies.
attributing a non-existent, over-riding ideology to people who disagree with them on those policies.
I thought that was fascist.
Fascist is what the Globalists call the Nationalists.
Nationalists is what the Xenophobes call themselves.
Xenophobes is what Libertarians call the Nationalists
“Dope Smoking Fags” is what…..
See how this works?
My point is that the terms are used mostly to paper over narrow differences on specific policies, and to pretend that ones opponent is driven by some over-riding ideological bent rather than ‘reason + self-interest’
You are a sexy hair-doed mofo, and I like it.
Well that’s certainly easier than the alternative, which involves discourse and argumentation.
This is, to some extent, the result of a democratic system that turns on motivating the voters. Everything becomes about finding the most effective method to turn out the vote. Collectivizing, labeling, and demonizing the other is usually the solution.
There certainly are people who like to style themselves as cosmopolitan, though, which means basically the same thing.
Also, I think it’s only been recently that globalist has taken on an unappealing sheen to people other than the InfoWars crowd.
which means basically the same thing.
Really?
Because i’m not seeing it used in nearly the same way.
“Cosmopolitan” is generally used to mean ‘worldly and informed’;
“Globalist” is generally used to mean “sacrifices the interests of their homeland for the sake of dirty foreigners who would gladly kill us all”
The above usage was itself parsing the term to suggest, “as a purely economic thing, its ok”, but that Cultural Globalism is anathema.
even the instance above suggests that “globalists” =
In the recent past, yes, I agree with you. I think that’s something that has changed in the past decade. Only the Buchananites used globalist as a slur in the ’90s, for instance.
Are those cosmopolitans rootless?
I don’t know. I do know they’re better with “extra vodka, less Cointreau”
âGlobalistâ is generally used to mean âsacrifices the interests of their homeland for the sake of dirty foreigners who would gladly kill us allâ
Less tendentiously (unless you just want to yokel-bait), perhaps “believes that national policy should not be set according to what is in the best interests of the nation, but in the best interest of the global community” would suffice.
i don’t like that formula because i think it really just elides the real distinction;
e.g.
person A says “we need tariffs and less immigration for the benefit of America!”
person B says “we need NO tarriffs and MORE immigration for the benefit of America!!”
Person A sneers = “UGH – GLOBALIST”
Person B sneers = “FASCIST!”
Meaning, this ‘global community’ thing is just fuzzy-wuzzy nonsense. There’s no such thing.
The real debates are ALWAYS whether policy X is in our broader self-interests, or narrow self-interests. I think the people who cry “globalist” the fastest use that term because its politically easier than saying, “Fuck the mexicans and the chinese”
similarly, the people who talk about this “global community” gibberish are just using their own term to avoid saying, “I run a multinational company and prefer US policy to favor my particular interests and my need to market my brand internationally”
Meaning, this âglobal communityâ thing is just fuzzy-wuzzy nonsense.
Oh, I couldn’t agree more. But there are people out there who actually believe it is a real thing.
What’s interesting is, the argument against tariffs and for immigration can certainly be made on “what’s good for Murca”, but often is not, but is cast in more moralistic terms instead.
Yes. and its the case i’ve tended to make the few times i’ve felt compelled to make it.
A problem i ran into frequently on TSTSNBN – and elsewhere – is when people get confused by arguments which say the following =
e.g.
– “I disagree with your reasons for X”
Other person – BUT YOU SAID YOU AGREE WITH X!!!?
– “I do. But not for the reasons you present, which are terrible.”
….(confusion, anger)…..
the most recent and most notable instance of this has been
– “Trump is going to destroy the planet!!”
– No he’s not
– “Ugh, Fanatical Trump supporter!”
(This post was moderator-edited so as to contain useful content.)
Are you actually a retard, or do you just play one on the internet?
I would argue that there is actually not a single person out there who would describe themselves as a âGlobalistâ
Not sure that matters. “Globalist” is a description of a particular ideology; just because someone doesn’t use that term for their own ideology doesn’t mean the ideology doesn’t exist or that they don’t adhere to it.
You know, a quick Google reveals that there is a website going by “The Globalist”. So there are people who self-identify as globalists.
i don’t know if “naming a magazine something” is the same as identifying a coherent and widely-shared ideology. Although i confess, as a child I was pretty much an avowed Thrasherist
I haven’t looked at them enough to know if they are using “Globalist” consistent with the ideology. Of course, as you pointed out, the lack of definition of what the globalist ideology actually is, provides just the space for people to (re)define it to suit their own ends.
“Neo-conservative” is a description of a particular ideology too.
(And, of course, “neoliberal” has been stolen to take the place of the 90s use of “fascist” to mean “anything I don’t like”.)
Neoconservative is a fairly well established brand. I would be pressed to find three people who agree on what neoliberal means, although I think most people put Hillary in that camp.
I’ve always thought the liberal in neoliberal to be the classical liberal sense, not the US left-of-center sense. Hillary isn’t neoliberal at all.
I believe it was meant to refer to the economic school of thought. Re-birth of the liberal school of economics, so basically what you said.
The usage of neoliberal that I have seen, mostly derogatory, seems to put it in the same vein as globalist.
I think Neoliberal and Globalist are basically the sneer words on the Left and Right, respectively, for the same sorts of gripes against what used to be known colloquially and the “Washington Consensus”
– Using the power of govt to promote international trade; often at the expense of domestic concerns
– following from that: promoting currency debasement; low trade barriers, weak labor protections; lots of pro-corporate policies, signing on to lots of ‘international treaties’ simply for the sake of engineering larger and larger spheres of multinational influence, etc.
Well, there’s this. Alternately, this, though I’d probably be just as tickled to argue that guy’s definitions with him as you would. Also the flurry of articles after Trump’s victory about how worried the globalists were about the backward steps to globalism after Brexit and Trump.
I read in mostly economics circles, where it’s usually presented as a market condition. The world is big now. It no longer takes four months to get mail from England. I can find out the price of tea in China in about ten seconds (weak Google-fu, but I gets there in the end). If I had the druthers, I could be anywhere in the world tomorrow, for a given definition of tomorrow and assuming no government employee feels like stopping me. This is the condition under which markets work, with these such compelling and efficient communications and transportation evolutions. Being upset about the ramifications of these things may be rational and even reasonable, but that doesn’t change the conditions.
As Tarran points out above in re: tribalism and I’m shamelessly borrowing since it works so well here as well, when “Globalism” becomes a handy excuse for someone to tell others what’s allowed, what isn’t, and start ordering people about, that’s when I start hissing. Central planning has such a dismal record thus far, it doesn’t seem as if expanding it so self-described elites can live atop Mt Olympus would fix the inherent deficiencies. Seems as if pretty much the opposite would happen.
One of these things I don’t like. The other, it’s irrelevant whether I like it, as it is a function of our advanced abilities. Currently it seems the governments, cronies and various assorted Top Men are reaping the greatest benefits of globalism as a market condition, while carefully steering and fencing us lesser mortals from enjoying same as it befits their purpose.
I think it matters little whether globalists use the term for themselves. The general sense of how most people on the right are using it to describe those on the left who support it, is that it’s basically “those who seek world government.”
It’s probably on a euphemism treadmill of its own simply because the meaning of NWO was transformed into “crackpot conspiracy theorists.”
It’s not like there aren’t those who truly do wish to see a North American union replace America’s sovereignty, and ultimately for that to form a union with the EU, and so on. Creeping globalism, as it were.
My point was mainly that “Globalism” is a very-popular catch-all term these days, which is used most often on social-media by alt-righties, and is intended to mean something along the lines of “pro-immigrant, pro-international trade, and probably riddled with lots of ((you know who)))”
In that first example you provide, it was the editorial-writer and not his subject who used the term “Globalism”
Generic appeals to a ‘global community’ do not an ‘ism‘ make. And I don’t think citing Washington Examiner does anything except prove my point about ‘who the term is popular with’, and why.
And the second link is really just somone echoing (or trying to unpack) Trump’s own evocation of the term. If this were Excel, you’d be getting a Circular Reference Error.
Again – if the term actually means something to some people, that’s fine; but the purpose it actually serves at the moment is as a basket to throw a vague “other” into, and attribute that Other as the locus of all our current ills.
which, as i’ve pointed out in the past, is a problem with the way libertarians use the term “Interventionist” – because it presupposes there’s someone out there saying, “INTERVENE!! DONT CARE WHERE JUST DO IT!!” which isn’t really the case.
The reason people prefer the catch-all terms is mainly because its a way of avoiding specifics of policy debate. because you can just claim that your opponents are driven by some pernicious ideology, and whatever position you happen to have is just by default the ‘reasonable’ one.
“My point was mainly that âGlobalismâ is a very-popular catch-all term these days, which is used most often on social-media by alt-righties, and is intended to mean something along the lines of âpro-immigrant, pro-international trade, and probably riddled with lots of ((you know who)))â”
I think you’re conflating the actual beliefs of globalists with the leftist propaganda of what globalists stand for.
It’s not “pro-immigrant” it’s “pro-penniless ‘refugee’ brought in to the country and immediately enrolled onto the dole and given a leftwing party card”
It’s not “pro-international trade” it’s “pro byzantine ‘free trade agreements’ which surrender national sovereignty and cede domestic authority further into the hands of the bureaucrats.”
When they say “pro international cooperation” they mean “international taxes to pay for various progressive schemes.” They mean “cede your sovereignty to the UN to fight climate change and racism and other things that are your fault.”
The charge of anti-Semitism is particularly nonsensical. The American Right just doesn’t have very many anti-Semitic elements, unless you believe that national socialism is of the right, which has never made any sense to me. Socialism, be it race based, class based, nation based, whatever, is intrinsically leftist. The antimarket right is an incredibly tiny group in the US, because the antimarket right is feudal or aristocratic, and there is no conservative tradition of such in the US. Unless we’re going to call Calvin Coolidge antimarket, I don’t see how protectionist tariffs are outside the bounds of the market.
I started this off by saying I don’t think there is such a thing as a “Globalist”
There are just people who differ from the people using that term on specific policies; and the term is a way of papering over policy-specifics
You seem to think these “Globalist” people exist. Can you name a few, and do any of them actually use that term to describe themselves?
âIf we really believed the pen is mightier than the sword, the nationâs capital would be named not for the soldier who wielded the revolutionary sword, but for the thinker who was ablest with a pen. It would be Madison, D.C.â
-Some old white racist
The phallic Washington Monument proves that the penis mightier than the sword.
Trebek!
“I’ll take Anal Bum Covers for $500.”
“I’ll take Swords for $200”
“Mr. Connery, the name of the category is S Words”
“Well, it starts with a bloody S!”
This land is our land, and those words are our words. Itâs a fucked-up land, to be sure; like an old broken-in boot â comfortable, ugly as sin but still bringing a sigh to your lips when the worn leather molds around you knowingly, as few things can.
Well, shit. Now you got me all nostalgic for that other site. [kicks pebble]
I was myself going to use that as an avatar, then chose something… more stylish, obviously
I originally got it from Sugarfree’s website, FWIW. like herpes.
There was The Typical Libertarian blog for a while, riffing off the image, but I can’t seem to find it any longer.
Have you been reading my diary? Great blog/article!
Has anyone got more luck getting this site to render on a phone? The articles are readable but the comments span a full desktop-size page.
mine works fine, it’s harder to tell responses when threads start having multiple chains though.
Chrome, up to date, samsung s6.
Thanks. I’ll have to switch over from adblock.
Is this driven by WordPress? (i seem to recall they did the login)
If so, does WordPress have a specific App for phones? (i also vaguely seem to recall some thing being mentioned in the past)
Having a phone would mean that we go outside from time to time. Everyone knows that Libertarians are all naive children who live in their parents’ basement and read Ayn Rand novels over and over again. Having a phone would also imply that people want to talk to us….
My orphan child labor runs errands for me.
We post comm–I mean, they post comments for me.
Yep. Android 6.01 in Chrome.
Bulwer-Lytton coined “The pen is mightier than the sword”? He also wrote the book that started with “It was a dark and stormy night,” mercilessly mocked for being bad 19th century British fiction and later immortalized by Snoopy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_was_a_dark_and_stormy_night
There is also an annual Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest.
That’s pretty clever, actually – punishing the behavior, not the person. “Banning homeless people” gives the impression that “homelessness” is a permanent condition, like race or national origin. Well, it’s not.
The courts have come down hard on banning homelessness, per se, such as the old-time vagrancy laws. They have had to construct ever more carefully tailored laws to try to achieve the same net effect.
“The law, in it’s wisdom, prevents both the rich man and the poor from sleeping under a bridge.” -From memory and can’t be arsed to look up who said that and how badly I’m mangling it.
Remember, the good football tackle doesnât aim for the shoulders. Aim for the knees.
My defensive coach always said to watch the dick. “He can’t juke you with his dick.” Not sure if that is true…
Jesse, thoughts?
Also, am I not able to use HTML? My tags keep getting eaten.
What tags did you try?
bold, italics.
blockquote worked fine, which is why I assumed the rest worked.
You need to use EM (emphasis) instead of I (italics), and STRONG instead of B.
Thank you kindly.
em and strong instead of i and b
What they said.
Thank you kindly.
Thank you kindly.
Fuck you system, for daring to slow down my gratitude!!
I screwed up italics in another thread with the italics tags
Try that again italics
Try <em></em>
try
Thanks, tarran
There is only italics, or italics not. There is no try.
Always keep one eye on the balls. /Coach S
Guess you played at Penn State.
Insert cat-asshole jpeg here.
I always suspected you liked cat assholes from your valueless contribution on the other site.
What is cuffy’s other handle name?
99% sure Daijal/AM/[shreek, probably].
ah. I had someone else in my mind.
Oh. Thanks. *walks away quickly*
He always posts as “no talent ass clown”.
Not sure what his handle is though.
I like the pipe, you should get you a vape pipe. Still sexy and it makes you immortal.
I don’t think I’m being ‘instinctive’ when I’m being an originalist with the constitution. I’m just lucky enough to have both it and a metric butt ton of letters the guy that wrote it sent to newspapers trying to explain what the whole thing meant. That makes the swirling of the drink around the snifter cocktail party sophistry of twisting every word and turn of phrase out of context seem so silly to those of us that aren’t lawyers. I’m a knuckle dragger, but I can read. And were the Constitution ‘Green Eggs and Ham,’ you’ve got Seuss and all his buddies writing to anyone that would listen exactly what they meant by ‘could not would not with a goat.’ That’s how you go from ‘shall not be infringed’ to “It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is” The sophists clink glasses and congratulate one another on being clever. We almost drop our cheap canned bear with that dafuq? look on our faces.
Exactly. Some people will use up a lot of breath just to tell you they’re shit heads.
(This post was moderator-edited so as to contain useful content.)
EEK!
I didn’t know P Brooks posted useless content. :-p
Not a fan of editing posts. Also as an unlikely aside, doesn’t that leave you open to some degree of liability for what we post?
Also as an unlikely aside, doesnât that leave you open to some degree of liability for what we post?
Not if we can produce an edit trail if one is ever demanded under subpoena.
Also, we have extremely strict requirements that have to be met before we ever modify a comment. We don’t take it lightly, and we err on the side of being permissive whenever there’s a conflict on what to do.
That said, you’re free to criticize us for it. We won’t ever moderate that.
2 days ago it was “anyone who complains” đ
Right, ban Gilmore.
::runs off to get banhammer::
Personally, as a longtime admin of a very large online forum, I tend to go with, “If it’s so bad we’d have to edit the comment, the user deserves to be banned immediately with extreme prejudice.”
No warning shot, no second chances. People know what’s over the line and trolls will always push that line if you give them a second chance. They don’t learn from their mistakes.
However, The Founders are all much nicer people than I. Or they just haven’t learned the hard way yet. đ
I will tow the lion.
I recall during the Preetathon that part of the issue was because Reason didn’t edit, or modify the posts they had basically no liability for anything said by the commentators. I’m unfamiliar with the law so that was a sincere question, not a rhetorical one.
I know. And I hope you believe my reply was a sincere explanation.
I could see “editing” to fix links or formatting.
But editing for content should be completely off the table (other than deletion of NSFW gifs or images).
I side with SP on this one. If you’re gonna edit content, it should be because you’re getting rid of the offending posts that got the person perma-banned.
I’m cool with editing a post to put a mod warning at the bottom when things are getting out of hand, but not banworthy. Of course I’m cool with edits to fix typos/SF’d links.
“Weâre not banning homeless people, gods bless you sir, no! Weâre just banning urban camping. Nothing to see here. Move along.”
Reminds me of baby boomers getting to set the agenda on everything. Let’s help the poor! But don’t take me! Take it from the ‘fund’ because debts don’t matter! Or what constitutes ‘good taste’ and ‘free speech’. They’re the gatekeepers and lemme tell ya it’s time for them to hand the keys over.
Rufus, thanks for an idea for an article. I’ve long wanted to write about “The Most Entitled Generation.”
This is a good starting reference, if you don’t know the book already. Talk about a take-down of a whole generation.
Thanks.
I’m either at the tail-end (heh) of the Boomers, or early Gen-X, depending on which criteria you measure by. I’ve spent my entire life living in the shadows of the boomers. So I’ve got a lot of material, but also glad to read the experiences and thoughts of others.
So, if a bunch of Sylvanians move into your Fredonian neighborhood, you can either accept the new reality or sell your property and move on. But what if they keep following you around?
The action most in line with the NAP is to purchase a lot of land and only allow Fredonians to step foot on it. At some point, you run out of available land, though.
That said, youâre free to criticize us for it. We wonât ever moderate that.
That was a reference to the moderated cuffy post- as in, how useless was it before it was “improved” by the moderator?
Careful. They’re watching.
1. Insert comical cat-asshole jpeg here
or
2. send Cuffy to the gulag
We err on the side of being permissive. Youâre free to criticize us for it. We wonât ever moderate that.
There is a difference between actual criticism and pointless, repetitive whining, aka time-wasting. So far I haven’t seen you raise a valid point. Also, this is a privately run site and there is nothing more libertarian than freedom of association.
“I havenât seen you raise a valid point.”
You haven’t looked. I’ve “raised” a few.
oh?
I won an award!
What do you want from this forum?
Freedom of speech?
You want freedom of speech in a PRIVATE venue? What makes you think you deserve that, Cuffy?
You have freedom of speech regardless of whether you do it here or not. Congratulations!
No one is obligated to listen to you in a private-venue. The question was, Why here? -i.e. this forum.
I, too, like that stilted version of “free speech.” Cuffy should post his address so the nearest one of us can invite ourselves into his bedroom at 3AM and give him a lengthy dissertation.
If he complains or calls the cops, he doesn’t believe in free speech.
*sigh*
I was hoping to get through this week before having to design a mute user button.
Why do you want to single out those who cannot speak? [ducks]
Why not? Its not like they can complain about it.
[Writes “oh, yeah / *?” on whiteboard]
Mimes “help”
Comment edited to be of value.
Putin says probably not.
Cat-assholes are allowed, but NSFW human-assholes are not? It’s just a mammalian orifice, people. If I Photoshopped Trump’s asshole onto a libertarian cat, would anyone here know the difference? I rest my case.
We are a PRIVATE website. If you don’t like our rules, you can leave. Or you can be ejected.
This comment edited to accurately reflect the author
What a surprise. Obsessive-compulsive stalker misses us.
If no one likes you, what can you do besides follow around people who don’t like you and poke at them?
I love the point when they play like they’re a normal contributor. You know, because normal contributors overstep their bounds and then just keep doubling down on it like assholes, instead of apologizing and never doing it again.
“overstep their bounds”
Please define “bounds” in a libertarian context. I want to learn. Thx!
Please define âboundsâ in a libertarian context.
going to a private forum and being an asshole about their rules of etiquette and then expecting people to cater to your temper tantrum.
As a side note… I’m so very shocked that the troll interprets libertarianism as absence any authority. That’s certainly never been used to strawman libertarians before.
Out of bounds (in a libertarian context): Beyond the acceptable levels of the owners or operators of a private establishment. When in the commons, it means anything short of violating the NAP.
Pretty simple. Now, if you keep committing the former, since this is a private venue, you will reach the second level of our progressive discipline program. Or we may skip to level 3, since you’re obviously a troll.
“our progressive discipline program”
Oh my. Does this involve paddles? I’m taking a screenshot. Be careful!
It involves banishing you to the cave you crawled out of.
Goodbye, Cuffy.
who the fuck is this, posting shit and taking risks
tryn ignore him, sore and now he’s boring
tripe that speaks on the fly-see whos trolling me, and why
It’s my nigga Cuff, from the other site
asked us whats a bunch of shit meant, trolls alwasy tryna start a fight
slick cuffy wanna stick us like flypaper, neighbor
slow down cuff, please chill, or get the hammer.
this was a good parody, people. come on.
Tie a pork chop around your neck and find a stray dog?
Here it comes.
” If you don’t let me shit all over your website that proves you’re not a really libertarians. But- if you DO let me shit all over your website, that proves libertarianism is a failed idea which will never work.”
100%
Please define âboundsâ in a libertarian context. I want to learn. Thx!
what?
Our soapbox, not yours. Go found your own site. Kthxbye.
So you can’t define “bounds”. Perfect!
Actually, its a perfect definition. Bye bye.
You know who else couldn’t define it, but knew it when they saw it?
The Warren Court?
Anyone claiming intrinsic value?
Anti-assault weapons folks?
Well-said, Brooks, well-said.
wouldn’t that just prove we’re libertines?
I’ve been interested in the way language is used (and misused) for many years. It’s one of few subjects that interests me enough that I might write about it at length. The way people communicate, the manner in which we select ideas to share, and how people seem to increasingly rely upon means other than words to communicate (as well as using words in ways that deviate from their denotations) intrigue me greatly.
I often see writers simply accept the current colloquial usage of terms with little effort made to explain how the meanings of words, presently in use, are changing. It pains me when professional writers, of all people, fail to adhere to established definitions. That’s not to say I’m opposed to idioms, metaphors, etc. but I am opposed to the manipulation of the essential meanings of words.
It’s nice to see an article devoted to that subject; I believe it deserves much more attention than it receives. I suppose it’s about time I take responsibility for the change I want to see and do something more substantial than complain to my friends about the degradation of language.
Bye Cuffy. We barely knew ya.
Are you guys planning on doing thread cleanup in this type of situation? If so, I recommend a scorched earth policy. Get rid of the troll and anything responding to the troll.
/JMO
We might leave this one’s carcass swinging from the gallows as a warning to others.
How very Stalinist!
Why? Keep the trolls and the responses as guidance for behaviors tolerated and not. More information for lurkers is better IMO.
Eh, If somebody breaks into your house and shits on the carpet, you don’t leave the shit there as warning to your guests when they come over. I get doing it once or twice, but at the end of the day, we’re here to read articles and interact with one another in the comments. Having to hurdle over 50 posts from Mary (and the requisite retorts from other commenters) to get to the next substantive one is annoying. If we’re gonna count scalps, let’s do it somewhere outside of the substantive threads.
/again JMO… I’ll respect the admins/owners’ decision no matter what they choose to do
Its a good point about shit on the carpet. I’m more drawing the analogy to a corpse on a pike out in the yard with a shit-stained section of carpet nailed to its chest. Although, I’m not sure how you accomplish that from a web-admin standpoint other than perhaps its own “page of shame” or somesuch.
I want my award, dammit!
https://glibertarians.com/2017/02/funniestmost-insightful-comments-of-the-week/
We might leave this oneâs carcass swinging from the gallows as a warning to others.
A *virtual* Tyburn.
I approve.
And not for thee. Enjoy it while you can.
Since nobody has yet mentioned him, here goes: